long distance cross country

[ZachP]

Ok, so I have about 38 hours in my C and am feeling comfortable with it as well as having a new instrument rating  . 

 

My question for the experienced ones here is this. How do you decide weather to fly commercial versus fly yourself? Also, the destination I am looking at regularly gets bad weather including ice and snow. How does the C do in those conditions or is it a no no?

[AmigOne]

Perhaps you have answered your own question. Personal flying a Mooney most times is for business or for pleasure (including training). The C is not approved for ice or snow leading to icing so I have never been in either and I can not comment. Common sense tells me that if I must be there for business then I will go commercial. And if pleasure is the objective, how pleasurable is it to fly in bad weather? My Mooney experience: about 700 hrs in a 201 and 450 or so in a 62 and a 68 C (my current one).

[N9453V]

ZachP, congrats on getting your Mooney and instrument rating. I own a '70 G model and use it for personal and business travel all over the US and Canada.

 

With the right experience and the right equipment, you can use the plane effectively for travel in a lot of circumstances. I routinely fly from Baton Rouge to Central Florida and the NYC area. I deal with a lot of weather flying by using XM weather and ensuring I am proficient to deal with flying approaches to minimums. I've also had to be flexible, changing routes ands stops and in a few cases where there was a squall line on my route, land and wait out the weather. With only 38 hours and a fresh IFR, you're going to want higher minimums though.

 

Icing, however, is something I don't mess with. In March, I had to scrub a flight from NYC to Toronto due to icing at 3000ft (the lowest IFR altitude) and fly commercially. Basically in the winter, you should assume your airplane is restricted to VFR flying only if the forecast freezing level is at or below the minimum IFR altitude. So, if you have to be there in the winter or in conditions you're not comfortable with, I'd fly commercial.

 

-Andrew

[Gone]

Zach:

 

I am like Andrew and I have over 600 hours in my E Model and about 140 hours of instrument time.  My criteria for using Ned Air are as follows:

• I will not fly when CBs or the combination of IFR/icing are forecast enroute. There are three sets of tools available to us all in deciding these things.  
  • The first is on the ground (strategic) and this is the one that generally decides it for me. We have good information available and good decision-making skills here will save you much trouble and heartache.
  • The second is in-flight weather (operational) and this one is new to me (ADS-B receiver) in order to practice examining route option possibilities from 100 miles away.
  • The third is the Stormscope/Strikefinder (tactical) tool and that one may be used by some to pick their way through / around / between cells.  Not me.  Don't have the equipment and not excited to push for it yet.
• I will not normally accept forecast minima for precision approaches (no WAAS in the aircraft yet) less than 400' AGL and 800' AGL for non-precision approaches.  That is my personal safety margin.  We each have our own.
• I will not normally fly night IFR, but I will fly night VFR (some very nice calm flights under those conditions to be sure).
• I start looking at forecasts seven days prior to the planned flight and I make my go/no-go decision five days before the planned flight.  This allows me to keep the commercial flight costs down to something within the estimate I have given my clients.
• I tend to not plan Ned Air for business between 15 November and 1 April.  I live in Canada and icing abounds.  If, on the off chance that it is severely clear and the forecast is solid in that regard, I will exceptionally use Ned Air.  But it does not happen often.
• If I messed up and made the go/no-go decision too late, it is my fault if I made a bad choice up to the date of flight. 

Hope this helps.  Good luck

[Marauder]

A few comments on winter flying and icing since I spent a fair amount of my flying career in the snow region. Where I did most of my winter flying (Western NY), it was rare to have clear days (especially for them to last all day). There were always clouds to contend with. To have a succesful winter flying career you need to become a student of weather. Often winter clouds are stratus in nature. What this means is that many times the cloud base to tops ratio is not great and if you are IFR rated it is possible to climb up through and get into VFR conditions. Where things get problematic are the variables.

 

Here are a few things I learned;

 

> Icing forecasts are best guesses where conditions will exist for icing. Icing really is where you find it. I have flown through an area where no icing was forecast and done so without picking up any ice, only to hear the guy behind me asking to change altitudes because he is. Always leave yourself an out.

 

> Climbing up through a stratus layer in late winter east of Lake Erie when the lake is frozen solid is completely different than east of Lake Ontario or any other large water mass that doesn't freeze solid in the winter. You need to learn what a "dry" cloud is versus a "wet" one that is filled with supercooled water just waiting for your airframe to cling to. I won't fly in areas where I know those probabilities exist. Always leave yourself an out.

 

> Just because I can get through a cloud layer doesn't mean I will fly an approach in it. I want solid conditions below me that I know will work (MVFR, without obscurations). Always leave yourself an out.

 

> Have a rental car company number handy, you'll need it

 

Winter flying can be great (smooth air, great airplane performance) or it can be your worst nightmare (loss of visibility due sudden blizzard conditions, high winds). And my favorite -- changing terrain. Even if I am familiar with an area, nothing looks the same after a snowfall.

[PMcClure]

Good advice above. take your time and get good experience in imc with your instructor.

If I have to be somewhere I book a refundable flight on Southwest Airlines. You can cancel up to departure time without fees. This takes pressure of my launch decision. I can usually make a decision 12 to 24 hours in advance. But I have canceled sw from the hanger too! Bottom line for me is that no meeting or trip is more important than my life.

[Z W]

Deciding whether to fly yourself or go by airline is always hard.  Especially if you're going on a long cross-country, which increases the odds you have to cross a weather system.  There are no hard and fast rules.  Each weather system contains its own challenges (ice, thunderstorms, low ceilings / visibility).  Each plane has its own challenges (no de-ice, no onboard Nexrad, no stormscope, no WAAS, no autopilot).  Each pilot has their own challenges (proficiency, training, confidence).

 

Each and every flight, you need to make sure you evaluate each and every challenge, and decide if you want to tackle it.  Also, decide if you want to take passengers with you.

 

A few tips, some of which I wish somebody had given me when I was in your position, which was not all that long ago:

 

1. Do not fly in clouds when the outside air temperature is between -5C and +2C (Ice)

2. Do not fly within 30 NM of anything shaded red on Nexrad (Thunderstorms)

3. Do not fly above widespread areas of low IFR conditions on the ground, meaning ceilings < 1000 ft (Engine out)

4. Do not fly IFR after sundown

5. Carry lots of extra fuel when IFR.  Detours and rerouting are much more common, and you have plenty to worry about without adding fuel to the list.  Add a fuel stop if necessary.

 

Some people will disagree with some of these.  I am just submitting they are a good start for a fresh IFR pilot.  Even the airline pilots will say that single pilot IFR in a single engine Mooney takes some brass.  It's a serious game we play.  So leave yourself some margin for error.

 

If I can accomplish the flight without breaking that list of rules, I generally will fly myself.

[1964-M20E]

Good advice above. take your time and get good experience in imc with your instructor.

If I have to be somewhere I book a refundable flight on Southwest Airlines. You can cancel up to departure time without fees. This takes pressure of my launch decision. I can usually make a decision 12 to 24 hours in advance. But I have canceled sw from the hanger too! Bottom line for me is that no meeting or trip is more important than my life.

Ditto for me. when I have to be there I have a refundable commercial ticket waiting. I usually cancel the flight after I get home and I have not had any problems with refundable tickets.  I even have some credits for some of the non-refundable ones that I need to use.

Like said above set you minimums to what you feel you are competent with not just current.  The biggest weather things I look at are thunderstorms, sever convective activity, fog, and icing.  Essentially if my destination forecast is less than marginal VFR I start looking closer at my flight and route and reviewing my flight plan and approaches.

 

This time of year afternoon thunderstorms can pop up quickly but are generally are scattered.  A long line of TS are a real pain.  Just be prepared to deviate and land early as necessary for the weather.

[M016576]

Flying in icing conditions routinely in a non certified piston single is not only illegal, but is akin to russian roulette (yet people still do it). Stay VFR in the winter time, or buy something with FIKI equipment is the best advice for that.

Start flying your cross countries. I'd avoid hard IFR (into the clouds at 300', don't see the ground or sky again until 200' as you break out on final) flight until you're comfortable with real world approaches on your own. Can't put an hours number on that- as it's more situational experience based. The way to get experience, though, is to fly, so go out there and have fun!

[ChrisH]

Agree with everything, and re-emphasis on be very comfortable if you do launch to land somewhere other than your destination, and drive the remainder of your trip. Often wx conditions are local (~100nm) and can easily be avoided safely just by landing somewhere else and driving 2-3 hrs safely. 

 

The other lesson for me as low time PIC was be PIC, don't just submit to ATC, if you see something you don't like, tell them, use UNABLE, ask for deviation around wx, ask what other planes are doing w/respect to wx enroute, ammend your routing or destination, change an assigned STAR to something better. ATC can be a great resource, or they can fly you into trouble. 

 

Be safe, happy flying and report back tips that you learn for the rest of us to learn.

[Mike A]

Under 500 miles:  plan to fly but drive if weather causes a no-go.  This does mean that a no-go situation can cause you to have to leave at the absolute crack of dawn to keep any sort of schedule.

Over 500 miles:  I am lucky to live in a Southwest hub and will purchase a ticket to my destination.  That way I can cancel my ticket up to the day of if the weather will allow me to fly and if not, I am already covered.

 

If it is a trip that you have to go on, always have a plan B and C.

[carusoam]

Keep in mind that there is not a very well developed alternate air source on the C model. Make sure you understand the limitations and operations of yours... Check it's maintenance history as well...

My C's 50 cent piece of stainless wire that bent in half and didn't operate the butterfly valve for carb heat still makes me wonder....

Mooneys that fly in ice conditions are known as "FIKI". Their equipment Includes sprayers of anti-freeze, heated stall vanes and additional lights. Fuel injection and alternate air doors are also nice to minimize ice ingestion issues. Spare alternators, second batteries...

Overall, you want to avoid icing like the plague. It's like avoiding thunderstorms, stay out of them.

Develop strategies of what to do with the different types of weather...

Best regards,

-a-

[ZachP]

Thanks for the input. Questions beget questions. Why do so many of you guys make a distinction between day IFR and night IFR? If you can't see further than the windscreen then the position of the sun should not make any difference? 

 

I would not purposefully fly into known icing but that can always happen even in the summer. I live in central Texas and finding IMC to practice in is difficult to say the least not to mention no snow ever. Hard to get proficient in winter flying 

[Z W]

Night IFR is hard to describe.  It gets hard to tell when you're in clouds, and when you're not.  You can't see buildups ahead of you to deviate and stay out of them.  The flash of your strobes off the clouds can unexpectedly disorient you.  It's tempting to keep looking out the window to try to figure out if you have a visual reference or not.  Unexpected flight into clouds can be disorienting even to an experienced IFR pilot.

 

Add in trying to hold the flashlight with one hand, read a chart or plate with the other, and talk on the radio to a controller, while a passenger is jabbering in your ear...  It's like day IFR, but harder.

 

The dangers of night VFR are also compounded.  Some pilots won't do night VFR because an engine out landing will be challenging.  An engine out in night IFR is like that, plus you can't even see hope to see the ground or find a road to land on until you break out the bottom of the clouds.

 

Same thing with a vacuum or gyro failure.  Bad enough during the day.  At night, you might break out with a partial panel, but still not be able to find the horizon.  

 

Find your own comfort level, but for me, night IFR is to be avoided.  I'd rather get a hotel room and fly another day.  I'd suggest you work your way up to it, if you're going to do it.  My opinion only.

[Seanhoya]

Gents,

 

All great advice.  A couple of years ago, I planned to fly from San Luis Obispo, Ca, back to Monterey overland at night, and then maybe take a vector or two out over the bay and land to the East.  Instead, control vectored me for a let-down over the mountains and then overwater on a pitch-black night.

 

Now, I am an navy helicopter pilot, so I thought this would be nothing new, but in a gen-av aircraft without all of the extremely reliable and redundant gear we have in the helicopter, and no co-pilot, it was.  I scared the heck out of myself.  I had to keep telling myself aloud, "Get your nose down, continue descent, start turn, stop turn."  When I finally started the approach at 2500' on final, I was high, and entered the goo at 2000.'  Strangely, the glow of the instrument panel had a calming effect - absolute IMC was easier to deal with than the distant lights overwater.  As I approached 200' AGL on the approach, I had the realization that I might not break-out.  I mentally prepared for the go-around, and then the rabbit-lights came into view a little to the right.  I literally kissed the ground when I landed, and vowed not to do that again.

 

The hardest part about being an instrument rated pilot is knowing what conditions are acceptable to fly in, and what are not.  Nothing takes the place of experience, but paradoxically, you must fly in instrument conditions to gain that experience.

 

A few recommendations:

1.  Start with daytime IFR flights.  Look for high ceilings and morning-only flights.  Do not fly if there is a chance of convective weather - this means no afternoon flying in most regions. 

2.  Start with nightime IFR flights in VMC only.

3.  Nightime over mountainous terrain may be okay if it is VMC.  Nightime IMC over mountainous terrain is a no-go.

4.  No nightime overwater unless absolutely necessary (on an approach).  Be aware that some consider this the most challenging IFR flying - hands down.

5.  Do not fly IFR if your flight will take you into clouds where the temperature is below the freezing level.  This takes an enormous amount of skill and experience to do, and still, you will be playing with fire.  It is hard to know what is going on within a cloud without being in the cloud.  Beware of forecasts.  This seriously limits winter IFR flying.

 

This all being said, I do not have a schedule which permits me to be a day early or late on a trip.  But flying gen-av, you almost have to count on it to remove the " get-there-itis."  I love flying, but I won't do it for work for this reason.  Many do successfully, and have offered some great advice above.

Sean 

[FlyTester]

I could fill a few paragraphs echoing many of the sentiments expressed above, but I want to touch on something no one else has mentioned.  Our Cs are Carbureted.  Even a slow Mooney rams moist air a lot faster through the carb than say a 172.  I've had more carb icing in the C I've owned for the past year than in the previous 22 total years of GA flying in 30 other aircraft types.  It's insidious because you're not trained to use carb heat at high power settings, but I've had carb icing here in the damp Pacific Northwest at 75% cruise as well as Full Throttle climbs.

 

I've ammended my operating procedure accordingly:

 

IMC/Rain Checklist

Pitot Heat - ON

Carb Heat - FULL HOT

Lean as necessary (the now hotter air means your mixture is enrichened until you re-lean it).

 

The minor decrement in performance far outweighs the pucker factor of a sputtering engine in IMC (or rain).

[N9453V]

Night IFR is hard to describe.  It gets hard to tell when you're in clouds, and when you're not.  You can't see buildups ahead of you to deviate and stay out of them.  The flash of your strobes off the clouds can unexpectedly disorient you.  It's tempting to keep looking out the window to try to figure out if you have a visual reference or not.  Unexpected flight into clouds can be disorienting even to an experienced IFR pilot.

 

Add in trying to hold the flashlight with one hand, read a chart or plate with the other, and talk on the radio to a controller, while a passenger is jabbering in your ear...  It's like day IFR, but harder.

 

The dangers of night VFR are also compounded.  Some pilots won't do night VFR because an engine out landing will be challenging.  An engine out in night IFR is like that, plus you can't even see hope to see the ground or find a road to land on until you break out the bottom of the clouds.

 

Same thing with a vacuum or gyro failure.  Bad enough during the day.  At night, you might break out with a partial panel, but still not be able to find the horizon.  

 

Find your own comfort level, but for me, night IFR is to be avoided.  I'd rather get a hotel room and fly another day.  I'd suggest you work your way up to it, if you're going to do it.  My opinion only.

 

 

I appreciate that a lot of pilots really want to avoid single pilot night IFR, but to give another perspective, I do a lot of single pilot night IFR (including over water legs) and personally I find it enjoyable. The airspace is less busy and generally the weekend warriors are nowhere to be seen. Also, I did most of my training for my instrument rating at night, so it just feels normal to me.

 

I've also had a few interesting experiences that you usually don't get during the day...

 

Coming back into BTR one night from HOU, they were reporting SCT004 and RA-... they cleared me for the visual for runway 31, but I couldn't clearly see the airport and asked for the RNAV GPS 31... the controller seemed a bit annoyed, but gave it to me... well I was on the approach and could see the runway at 2000ft, then it disappeared and I didn't see it again till 400ft in some fairly heavy rain...

 

Another time coming into BTR, it was 11:58PM and the tower closed at midnight. It was OVC009 BKN007 so I was doing the ILS to 13. Approach told me to go ahead and change to advisory and cancel with Flight Service, but then a very delayed CRJ from ATL checked in wanting to do the approach... after a bit of negotiating, tower and approach agreed to stay a few more minutes so the CRJ wouldn't have to hold outside the airspace till I'd cancelled.

 

Landing at CMH at 4:30AM, they cleared me for the ILS 28R, but forgot to change the localizer and glideslope from 10L and forgot to turn the runway lights on... as I was turning to join the localizer, I saw it go to full scale deflection and realized I was doing a back course. They fixed it and vectored me back on the approach course, but when I broke out, I couldn't see the runway... was about to go missed when the lights suddenly came on. The tower controller blamed it all on the "new guy" as I had a LONG taxi across the bridge to Landmark.

 

-Andrew

[Seanhoya]

Fly Tester,

 

I fly in the Monterey area - a bit South of you - and also experienced engine roughness at 75% power (below the freezing level, but in clear air at 8000' MSL).  I added full carb heat, and it went away.  I fly a normally aspirated 1968 Mooney M20G with Lycoming O-360.  I attributed the engine roughness to carb icing, as well.

 

Every time I have brought this up with others, they were confused - "You can't get carb icing at full power."  I appreciate your comments - my experience and the experience of a friend who lost his engine due to carb icing coming into San Francisco prompted me to add an after-market Whelen Carb Temp sensor to my panel.  Don't know how much it helps, but at least I have an idea now when I am in potential carb-icing conditions. 

 

Andrew - You the man!  Like you, I pride myself on some successes, but I have also scared the heck out of myself a number of times - while this may keep me a bit conservative, it also keeps me alive!  For me, it is important always to strive to expand your box as a pilot, while keeping one foot firmly planted within it.

 

Clear skies!

 

Sean 

[FloridaMan]

I've taken my "F" from Florida to Las Vegas, New York and I picked it up in Minnesota. I generally avoid night IFR and I always avoid forecasted ice, though I've been caught to where I was forced to fly an unforeseen approach down to ILS minimums at night when fog rolled in off the gulf. I also avoid CBs, which means, in the summertime in Florida, I am VFR only -- not worth risking hitting an embedded thunderstorm and I've watched the buildups outclimb the airplane. 

 

My basic rules for long cross-county flights are as follows:

 

1) Avoid a wet footprint whenever possible. This means stay within gliding distance of coastline. I sweat it out for a few minutes on my occasional Key West trips. 

2) If you must be at your destination by a certain day/time, plan your flight to get there a day or two early if you're crossing the continent. That way you can still make your destination as scheduled if you have to get your plane fixed or leave it behind, which brings me to item 3. 

3) Plan legs and fuel stops around accommodations, maintenance and transportation; it's not worth saving $0.50/gallon on gas only to find yourself stranded on a remote field on a weekend with no maintenance, rental cars or flights to your destination. 

 

For example, I flew from Tampa Bay to Las Vegas last October. I scheduled my flight to get there two days early. My fuel stops were at KGGG (Don Maxwell), KLBB (to check out the area) and KABQ. All locations were secure, had access to Southwest if I had to leave my plane, and I would have been able to locate maintenance if I needed it. More importantly, it reduced the psychological factors that might affect decision making. If you are faced with sleeping in freezing cold weather with coyotes in the distance and then continuing on in the morning with inadequate sleep while trying to beat the next day's weather, or pushing yourself on while fatigued at night, you may find yourself making a tough decision under the confusion of being already fatigued. It's best to have the option of a comfortable hotel room, a safe place for your airplane and convenient commercial transportation to get you out of wherever you are if absolutely necessary. 

[Piloto]

One of my major concerns during winter is runway conditions. Ice on the runway combined with crosswinds can cause a plane to veer off the runway. Some airports have no snow plows and rely on the city plows to have the snow removed from the runway. Best is to avoid un-controlled fields during snowy conditions.

 

On long trips over 3 hours weather can change substantially. Have onboard weather (XM or ADS- to assess condtions ahead. If outside of the US try your smart phone.

 

Don't forget means for relief yourself and passengers. It is very uncomfortable trying to hold.

 

Having and autopilot is a must. Specially when trying to relief yourself.

 

I occassionaly fly  900nm non-stop trips on my M20J to TJMZ and found to be more convenient and cost effective than by airline.

 

José  

[Seanhoya]

José,

 

How do you manage that?  Do you have extended range fuel tanks (Beyond 52 Gallons?)  Are you running lean of peak?  Do you have an engine analyser? 

 

Most people don't like to sit in a small plane more than three hours.  Relief bags, like you said, are a must.  I fly in Haiti, and afternoon flying gets sporting with the thermals - what time do you make your overwater portions of flight?  If you stop, do you stop at Grand Inagua?  I am thinking about taking my Mooney down sometime - I fly Cessnas here, but I asume that I would stop for fuel in Grand Inagua....

 

Sean

[fantom]

 

 

...Having and autopilot is a must. Specially when trying to relief yourself.

 

 

 

Sometimes a willing passenger can come in 'handy'

[gsengle]

Flying a single means planning for engine failure all the time.  I've had 3 engine related declared emergencies in 750 hours of flying, and in one case I couldn't hold altitude at all - so it does happen.

 

Day VFR, that planning is easy.  Look around, view the closest airports page on the GPS, know your glide distance at altitude.  Big farmers fields are nice.  Stay high to give yourself lots of options.

 

IFR makes this harder.  Enroute failure means that when you are out of glide distance from an airport, you don't get to think about where to set it down until you break out, and that when you do, your options will be limited by how low the ceilings are.  Would you really wanna break out at 1000 or 500 feet and have sixty seconds and a 1 mile radius to decide what to do?

 

Night is also a challenge - barring a full moon, you can't see much on the ground, but you can see some things.  Frozen lakes in the north, highway medians, etc. etc.  But night is a bad time for an engine failure as well, for different reasons.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Night IFR is not just double the death risk in case of an engine failure, it is that risk squared.  For me it is unacceptable risk.  Completely aside from the other factors cited that make it riskier even if the engine runs fine...

 

g

 

 

 

Thanks for the input. Questions beget questions. Why do so many of you guys make a distinction between day IFR and night IFR? If you can't see further than the windscreen then the position of the sun should not make any difference? 

 

I would not purposefully fly into known icing but that can always happen even in the summer. I live in central Texas and finding IMC to practice in is difficult to say the least not to mention no snow ever. Hard to get proficient in winter flying 

[Piloto]

José,

 

How do you manage that?  Do you have extended range fuel tanks (Beyond 52 Gallons?)  Are you running lean of peak?  Do you have an engine analyser? 

 

Most people don't like to sit in a small plane more than three hours.  Relief bags, like you said, are a must.  I fly in Haiti, and afternoon flying gets sporting with the thermals - what time do you make your overwater portions of flight?  If you stop, do you stop at Grand Inagua?  I am thinking about taking my Mooney down sometime - I fly Cessnas here, but I asume that I would stop for fuel in Grand Inagua....

 

Sean

Sean I have an M20J with 100 gallons Monroy tanks. I make the trip non-stop to save time. Because Puerto Rico is US territory there is no need for Customs either way if you do the trip non-stop. I leave from KFXE and from there on the flight is 90% over water. I have done the trip in day and night time with no issues. I usually depart at 5 am to get at TJMZ by lunch time. Because I am heading SE the sunrise is a annoying and I have to block the windshied with charts. If flying above 12,000ft you will not need to contact Bahamas (Nassau Radio) but Miami Oceanic and San Juan Center. Depending on the load I usually fly at 13,000ft and return at 14,000ft. I run the engine about 20F LOP.

 

If you need to refuel or stop Providenciales MBPV is the favorite place for many. The drawback of stoping is that you will need to do Customs (need passport). This will delay your trip two hours or more and you will need to fill an eAPIS. Going non-stop to PR is the same as going anywhere in the US without a passport.

 

Because of the altitude my wife and relatives fall asleep one hour after departure (we are sexagenarian). I carry a small O2 bottle to keep me awake. The trip is safe with no major weather issues. The trip is boring, most of the time you are looking at the ocean with occassional islands. Best airport for sightseeing is TJIG with Millionair and Signature FBOs. On my way back I refuel at TJBQ for best fuel prices.

 

It is a nice safe trip for those willing to venture overseas without the need of a passport.

 

José 

[Piloto]

 

 

 

Sometimes a willing passenger can come in 'handy'

 

To hold the controls or to hold the bottle?