Cost of upgrade

[ChristianGodin]

Any one knows were they are with the certification of the Amsafe seatbelt airbags for the 201.

Thank you

[NotarPilot]

Sounds super expensive to me. No update on their website as of yet but these manufacturers sometimes don't always update their websites with news. Might I suggest giving them a call and seeing what they tell you about the status?

When I saw the Whelen Orion 600 lights at AOPA in Palms Springs I called Whelen directly to inquire as to status of the TSO process shortly thereafter. They offered to sell me a set directly from them at a substantial discount once TSO approved. Not only did they give me a deal on those but they also sold me an LED beacon and position light at below retail price. They swore me to secrecy on what I paid but I'll say I saved hundreds of dollars and didn't have to pay CA sales tax (Relax Jerry, I'll declare it next year).

Sometimes it pays off to do a little leg work and pick up the phone. Sometimes these manufacturers want to get their products on a few planes and will give you a healthy discount to be one of the first. Good luck.

[aviatoreb]

Any one knows were they are with the certification of the Amsafe seatbelt airbags for the 201.

Thank you

 

Hi Christian, Have you seen this thread:

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8416-seatbelt-airbag-system-for-m20j-m20k/?hl=amsafe

 

I have had several emails with Richard Heitzmann several months ago and as far as I know the possible STC is stalled waiting for enough show of interest from possible consumers. I expressed my extreme interest in purchasing the STC as soon as available for my M20K but not luck yet.  If you are interested please contact directly to Heitzmann and maybe you will be the camel the breaks the STC's back to push the concept forward.  I believe it may not ever happen if a few more folks don't express serious interest. 

 

While I have a certified airplane because I believe all in all certified is a good system so shows the statistics, this is definitely a prime example where the certification process is getting in the way of safety.  Here we have a airbag seatbelt that everyone agrees is a good thing or at least not a bad thing, and me a motivated customer, and an install process that is so very similar to an already existing stc M20L and up, but I cannot have it....they need to spend lots of money to certify it on my specific airframe.  Too silly.

 

I would sign up for it tomorrow if it were available.

[Piloto]

I would rather invest on crash prevention than on crash survival. The outcome of crash prevention is always happy and healthy vs. survival sad and injured.

 

José

[flhelo]

Just looked them up. Says they are FAA/TSO approved.

http://www.whelen.com/pb/Aviation/Product%20Sheets/Orion_600.pdf

 

OOPS, Forgot what the original post was.....sorry!!

[Bennett]

While I agree that crash prevention is paramount, I also believe that air bags, in the right situation, can minimize injury. and perhaps death or paralysis. I don't believe it is an either or situation. I have been trying to have these airbags installed on my J since I bought her, and like others, I have exchanged messages with Richard to express my commitment to purchase the AmSafe airbags if the STC can be extended to the Js (and early Ks). A recent thread on this topic, however, did not reach the critical mass apparently needed A real shame, since airbags have proven themselves in cars. Different circumstances, perhaps, but I am here today, uninjured, after a head on collision with a snow plow - the closing speed was greater than 80 MPH. The SUV I was driving was not so lucky.

[Marauder]

Hi Bennett. I think most of us look at the safety device discussion as a risk versus reward discussion. I had the unfortunate experience of being at an airport that had a aircraft recovery service. These were the guys sent out to pick up what was left after an accident. I say "unfortunate" because I got to see the remnants of many fatal accidents. I got to know the guys who did the recoveries pretty well and they shared their experiences. What they told me was enough to make me stop flying, but I didn't. When I look at the types of aircraft accidents, I think they fall into 3 categories; incidents, survivable and not survivable. Incidents are the gear ups, clipping a wing, etc. Survivable are those where the plane is put down in some sort of controlled manner and there is a survivable impact or safe landing. The not survivables are the loss of control, running into the side of a mountain or a controlled landing but you hit something that makes it not survivable. Taking the incidents out of the conversation, then you are looking at the benefits of what an air bag will do for survivable accidents and more importantly the not survivable. For survivable accidents, there is some benefit if the bag helps in a high G unloading situation. In other words, you successfully put it down in a field and roll into a swale and stopped suddenly. No doubt an airbag will help minimize facial and blunt force trauma. In not survivable accidents, the likelihood of an airbag making a difference is much lower. I have seen the aftermath of these accidents. The compromise to the cabin is so great and the forces so strong that the integrity of the plane is gone and with it the seat belts, airbags and whatever else might be in it. And that is where the risk versus reward part comes in. Would l like airbags, yes. Would I like a parachute, yes. The question comes down to deciding whether the risk mitigation is worth the reward. The obvious answer is yes. But now you move into the cost versus benefit discussion. And I think that is where most people get hung up. For those that bought the Cirrus, it is clear to them that benefit outweighs the cost -- even if they never need to pull the big red handle and do incur $10k repacking costs every 10 years.

[Bennett]

Certainly airbags have a limited range of protection. No help at all mid airs, crashes into the side of mountains at cruise speed or higher, most likely of little value in most stall spin situations, but an overshoot while landing, a failed go-around, loss of control for any reason at takeoff or landing (a jammed brake for example) are situations that an airbag might help prevent serious injury. There are many "I'm a good pilot,it won't happen to me", situations where in fact it does happen. No one is perfect all the time. If available, I will buy the airbags as they are one more tool that might be of benefit to myself or a passenger. Cost benefit analysis is great over a large group or number of iterations, but I really don't care about averages; I am concerned about me. We buy Fire insurance because of individual uncertainty, while the industry as a whole has an actuarial certainty of overall losses. Just ask someone who lacks insurance, or is underinsured, and who has had a loss, if they regret not buying insurance, and how much they would be willing to pay if they could roll back time. That is how I see these airbags - I don't expect to use them, but just in case it is the day when in spite of all my experience and training, I screw up, or my airplane has a problem unfound even with great maintenance.

[NotarPilot]

Can I include into the discussion that, in a lot of circumstances you may have the option to decide where you're going to crash in an airplane versus it being a sudden and unexpected event in a motor vehicle? What I mean is, let's say you have an engine failure at 5,000 feet in day conditions or even at night but you have a lit highway you can go to. I would argue that being that you have a choice on where and how you'll put the airplane on the ground would greatly increase your chances of survivability with or without airbags. But this comes down to confidence, skill and having a plan.

I do a lot of flying at night but I fly over a well lit urbanized area. I have a plan on exactly where I'll go should the big fan stop turning on it's own. I'm either going in the LA river or on a freeway. Do I feel the need to have airbags in my plane? Probably not. Shoulder harnesses? Absolutely, and that's why I paid to have them put in a few months ago. Those make me feel much safer than the previous lap belfs I had.

Also, look at how many crashes have been survivable without airbags so far. I see many crashes on the news that leave you surprised that someone walked away from or survived. Then there are many I see that would be totally unsurvivable no matter what they had.

[Bennett]

In other aircraft I have had four and even five point harness, which I would really prefer to our "over one shoulder" belts. Since we cannot install four point harnesses in our Mooneys, I feel that air bags are a good augmentation to the single shoulder belt we do have available.

[bumper]

Marauder,

 

Think about it this way, airbags can make the difference between and open casket or closed casket funeral.

 

 

Yeah, I know, can't help it, sick sense of humor.

 

BTW, I have airbags in my Husky. 

[NotarPilot]

I've already decided I want to be cremated anyways.

[aviatoreb]

I would rather invest on crash prevention than on crash survival. The outcome of crash prevention is always happy and healthy vs. survival sad and injured.

 

José

 

Jose' - I agree - if I had to choose one, I would choose prevention.

 

But that is not how it works.  I can afford both.  I choose both.

[Marauder]

Marauder, Think about it this way, airbags can make the difference between and open casket or closed casket funeral. Yeah, I know, can't help it, sick sense of humor. BTW, I have airbags in my Husky.

You my friend, are one sick individual Where I think the window of chance with airbags increases is the types of accidents like Bennett describes. There are a number of things that can be improved from a safety perspective. Like crash worthy seats. I had a friend who broke his back and the passenger's too after his prop broke and he pancake landed on an upslope.

[bumper]

You my friend, are one sick individual Where I think the window of chance with airbags increases is the types of accidents like Bennett describes. There are a number of things that can be improved from a safety perspective. Like crash worthy seats. I had a friend who broke his back and the passenger's too after his prop broke and he pancake landed on an upslope.

 

I had Oregon Aero rebuild my 201 seats with Confor (aka NASA) foam. Major improvement in both comfort and spinal protection. . . . not cheap though. I also have Confor foam seats in my Husky, courtesy of Aviat as they come stock that way and in my glider as well. The glider uses the extra firm green foam as it affords the maximum protection in the thinnest cross section (you can put 1/2" of the stuff on concrete and hit it with your fist - - hard and not require pain meds or remedial training).

 

bumper