Do you have an angle of attack indicator (poll)

[AmigOne]

xftrplt, on 31 May 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

José,

Jim is exactly correct. The ASI is important for V1, Vr, and Vf (etc.) but otherwise (at least in theory) AoA is determining.

Respectfully,

Dick

Dick,

I don't believe that I disputed that fact in my post although it might have sounded like that. The baseless assumptions I was talking about were his comments re AoA that "it seems that most GA pilots don't learn and/or understand what it means" or that "some guys have huge heartburn even accepting the idea of it."

[aviatoreb]

Dunno about the seat-belt airbag but be aware that AoA systems DO NOT require an STC, not even field approval for the install; only a logbook entry by any A&P.

 

Took 'em a while but FAA finally figured it out and got that one right.  Please read the FAA Letter of Clarification

 

Cheers!

 

Thanks - yes, we are well aware of that FAA letter.  I believe it means that I could even install it myself if I were more handy.  Is that right?!  In any case, if yes, then this portends the possibility of good things to come of perhaps an easing of the certified airplane regs.  I mean really I should be allowed to have those seatbelts installed.  I did ask them by at the FBO shop if next time the FAA comes around if they would allow a one-off install of the seatbelts.  After all, they are already certified in M20M and up.  So why not just allow me to put them in my M20K.

[aviatoreb]

Be sure to post pics.

 

Roger that!

[RobertE]

Don't we all have AOA indicators in the form of a stall horn? And, although I know this is true, what I don't actually know is if the stall horn is typically triggered in the sort of base to final turn that has some people angering in. Anyone know?

[201er]

Don't we all have AOA indicators in the form of a stall horn? And, although I know this is true, what I don't actually know is if the stall horn is typically triggered in the sort of base to final turn that has some people angering in. Anyone know?

Comparing the stall horn to an AOA indicator is like comparing the gear warning to an ASI. Yes, the stall warning operates on the same principle but it's only giving you a last resort warning (in the event of an aggressive or banking stall it's probably too late). On departure, if the stall warning is going off, your climb rate is going to be terrible. Usually the time the stall warning goes off on departure is when you're desperate for that climb (hot/heavy/short) but putting yourself in the place where the stall warning goes off means you're not going to get that climb you seek. By glancing at an AOA, you can aim for the pitch attitude that will give you that ideal climb without regard to weight, temperature, cg, bank angle, flaps, etc. So while the warning is good to have, it's not giving you the useful information that an AOA gives you to prevent getting to that point in the first place.

[Bill_Carter]

MAPA does have a European branch for Bill in Belgium. EMPOA or something like that. Check out www.mooneypilots.com and see if you can find a reference or link. The Pilot Proficiency Program is very thorough, 16-20 hours in the classroom and 4 hours flying your own Mooney with an experienced CFII, doing everything that has been discussed.

 

It's a great transition program for new Mooney pilots.

I will look into this. Thanks Hank!

[jimosborn]

Thanks - yes, we are well aware of that FAA letter.  I believe it means that I could even install it myself if I were more handy.  Is that right?!

ANS:  That's right, along the same lines as an owner assisted inspection, although it still requires an A&P airworthiness sign off..

 

In any case, if yes, then this portends the possibility of good things to come of perhaps an easing of the certified airplane regs.  I mean really I should be allowed to have those seatbelts installed.  I did ask them by at the FBO shop if next time the FAA comes around if they would allow a one-off install of the seatbelts.  After all, they are already certified in M20M and up.  So why not just allow me to put them in my M20K.

ANS:  I think the complication there is that the airbag-seatbelts are already products of an STC, which requires the STC holder to provide an AML (Approved Model List) for install to any particular make/model.  So I suspect the shortest approval route is to lean on the STC holder to add your plane to the AML,  I strongly doubt that a local FSDO would take it upon itself to issue a one-off field approval for any product that has already undergone the STC process, particularly one that modifies an existing required item like seat belts; opposed to a non-integrated stand-alone like AoA.  Nevertheless, one never knows for sure until one asks .

 

Cheers, Jim O

[Mooneymite]

Here's what you need instead of that high-tech stuff....something simple that works:

 

 

 

A Johnson airspeed indicator.....It will fit neatly on your Mooney N struts.

 

[201er]

You already have an AOA , its that little metal vane on the leading edge of the wing , that makes a buzzer sound when you move it on preflight...

I think you demonstrated well enough today how the one you have is barely sufficient for you to get by If we have to hear it, then you're already doing something wrong.

[Marauder]

I think you demonstrated well enough today how the one you have is barely sufficient for you to get by If we have to hear it, then you're already doing something wrong.

 

And after today's face to face, we were making progress... Back to the drawing board for me...

[201er]

As a general theoretical statement, that sounds great.  But as a practical application, what does it mean if you have an Alpha AOA with 16 LED lights in your J?  In this "ideal climb" how many of the 16 LED's would be lit and would you be in a Vx climb, a Vy climb or something else?  I am not trying to be

argumentative but just trying to understand the practical application of the theory.

I dunno. I have an analog one. But my guess would be that X number of dots is Vx, Y number of dots is Vy, and Z number of dots is Vso. What you gotta do is fly some known weights/configurations that are close to book value and see what your AOA shows. Then calibrate your interpretation to those indications when you are at alternate weights/configurations/etc and don't know the absolute values.

 

I didn't just start flying my AOA. In fact at first I didn't appreciate it and just flew speeds. But I started to see correlations and learn how the two compare. Thus I learned to make the most of the AOA and realized that it is more telling than the AOA when you are flying slow or in complicated configurations.

 

As suggested, I'm going to try to shoot a video showing my AOA indicator while doing a pattern. I'm just not sure how to show the gauge and outside at the same time without the gauge being too small or cutting out the outside view since it is on the bottom of my panel.

[aviatoreb]

I dunno. I have an analog one. But my guess would be that X number of dots is Vx, Y number of dots is Vy, and Z number of dots is Vso. What you gotta do is fly some known weights/configurations that are close to book value and see what your AOA shows. Then calibrate your interpretation to those indications when you are at alternate weights/configurations/etc and don't know the absolute values.

 

I didn't just start flying my AOA. In fact at first I didn't appreciate it and just flew speeds. But I started to see correlations and learn how the two compare. Thus I learned to make the most of the AOA and realized that it is more telling than the AOA when you are flying slow or in complicated configurations.

 

As suggested, I'm going to try to shoot a video showing my AOA indicator while doing a pattern. I'm just not sure how to show the gauge and outside at the same time without the gauge being too small or cutting out the outside view since it is on the bottom of my panel.

 

I would love it if you would shoot such a video.

 

I saw one instructional video that consisted of two synchronize cameras shown in split screen - one showing the panel and the other showing out the window.

 

How about you get one bird to hold the inside view camera and the other bird can shoot the other video and you fly the airplane?  Those are impressive birds! :-)

[aviatoreb]

I just got the word yesterday at the end of the day that the angle of attack install is completed and only waiting for paperwork plus me to go and do the in flight calibration - so that will happen Monday if weather is obedient.  Can't wait - I love new toys.

 

I got the full bels and whistles version - electronic display, voice annunciator warnings, heated probe.

 

Side note - they found in my wing a sheet metal bucking bar all rusted out and likely lodged i there since the airplane was first constructed.  Should I polish it up and send it back to kerryville?

[Marauder]

I just got the word yesterday at the end of the day that the angle of attack install is completed and only waiting for paperwork plus me to go and do the in flight calibration - so that will happen Monday if weather is obedient.  Can't wait - I love new toys.

 

I got the full bels and whistles version - electronic display, voice annunciator warnings, heated probe.

 

Side note - they found in my wing a sheet metal bucking bar all rusted out and likely lodged i there since the airplane was first constructed.  Should I polish it up and send it back to kerryville?

 

You have most likely given 201er "Angle of Attack Envy". Be sure to post some pictures and even videos if you can. Be interested to see how this bad boy works.

 

As for the bucking bar, doesn't say much for the mechanics who have done the annuals on the plane since it was new, does it?

[DaV8or]

As for the bucking bar, doesn't say much for the mechanics who have done the annuals on the plane since it was new, does it?

 

In all fairness to the previous mechanics and owners, you are not required to open every access and inspection panel during an annual. Basically on my Mooney, there are only four on each wing that need to be opened. If an owner wants to open them all they could elect to pay the shop additional to do it, or do it themselves. I really can't blame an owner for foregoing this extra bit of inspection personally, since I'm currently going through annual now and it looks like it's going to be another $4,500 annual. It could go even higher if I elected to do the nose discs.

 

Pre buy inspection, that's another story.

[DaV8or]

Ever notice that whenever somebody invents, or makes available a new technology for GA about half the pilot community will come out and say- "What the hell do you need that for? The old ways are best, look out the window and stick and rudder is all you need. "My Grandpappy's plane served him well for over 5,000 hours and 40 years, that's good enough for me."?

 

Yet, in the old days, pilots and passengers used to die at a much higher rate than they do today. It's really no wonder we all fly planes technologically from the '50s and '60s. Not enough pilots will accept the way forward.

 

As to the topic of the thread, I want an AOA indicator. Cost is an issue right now though. I also have serious calibration questions. I have only investigated the Alpha systems, so others may have a more precise calibration procedure.

[jetdriven]

In all fairness to the previous mechanics and owners, you are not required to open every access and inspection panel during an annual. Basically on my Mooney, there are only four on each wing that need to be opened. If an owner wants to open them all they could elect to pay the shop additional to do it, or do it themselves. I really can't blame an owner for foregoing this extra bit of inspection personally, since I'm currently going through annual now and it looks like it's going to be another $4,500 annual. It could go even higher if I elected to do the nose discs.

 

Pre buy inspection, that's another story.

 

Which four do you need to open? We removed all of the for the first annual, for the second we removed about 12 or so.

[DaV8or]

Which four do you need to open? We removed all of the for the first annual, for the second we removed about 12 or so.

 

I'm not sure how to explain it, but you do the one where the A/P servo is typically mounted, same panel on both wings, then there's one way back by the flaps closest to the fuselage and one more small one and one more larger one. This is for both wings, so a total of 8 panels. When I get back to my plane, maybe I can take a picture and indicate which ones they do. Unfortunately, I put them back on yesterday, so I'll have to do some photoshop arrows.

[Hank]

I remove 3 or 4 per wing. I put SS screws in them so I can remember which ones; the others are painted.

[aviatoreb]

If I give 201er aoa-envy then I will remind him that his birds should be his voice annunciators...or they aren't earning keep.

I'm not put off in the least regarding the tool hiding in the wing for 30 years. It must have been lodged in a place that need not be inspected until this install. I consider I currently have a very careful and talented ap.

I agree with your description of incorporating improving equipment dav8or - and the "my grandpappy didn't need it old school"....heck grandpappy survived driving cars with no seatbelts... Andno airbags...So why should I wear them? But people got killed on the highways at a greater rate. Anyway call the aoa my new toy or call it useful but it's in the panel!

I will take pictures very soon - when I get it back!

[Hank]

My inspection panels are not painted closed--the screwheads are painted, so that the SS screws identify the "remove for annual inspection" panels. All inspection panels do not need to be removed, and some go into the fuel tank . . . . .

[fantom]

I always viewed painted over inspection panels as a sign of a poor maintenance history. Mine all come off and get a look see every year, without exception. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

You're not...

 

Back in my Mooney novice days, I had the Mod Works do my first annual. The SOB's took off no inspection panels, as I discovered by the perfect paint on all the screw heads four months later.

 

GA Aviation tuition....

[DaV8or]

I always viewed painted over inspection panels as a sign of a poor maintenance history. Mine all come off and get a look see every year, without exception. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

No, not wrong at all. It's always your option. If you don't assist in the annual, I would suggest just letting the shop pull the few they need for the inspection portion of the annual and then you pull all the rest at home. As the owner you can pull any panel you want, any time you want and you can save the labor charges.

[FloridaMan]

Go to the 2:00 mark. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19nIwIXL32s&feature=youtu.be&t=2m7s

[Marauder]

Go to the 2:00 mark. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19nIwIXL32s&feature=youtu.be&t=2m7s

 

Yep, General Yeager has basically told Mike he shouldn't be flying...