AndyFromCB Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Quote: M016576 Wow. " Amateurish comments because some poeple believe they are a crutch." Thats a pretty harsh remark, considering some of the aviation experience on this board. I have no doubt that those that have speed brakes on their ~200kt mooney's enjoy using them, but realize that their are faster aircraft out there that shoot beautiful approaches without boards. For this type of aircraft, I would put speed brakes in the "luxury item" category. After all, every mooney is equipped with a huge spinning speed brake straight out of the factory... My humble opinion is this- your feelings on the necessity of speed brakes are directly correlated to what, where and how you've flown prior to your mooney. If you've got I'm, and need them, then use them. I wouldnt go out of my way (or wallet) to install them though. Just my humble opinion.
johnggreen Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Job, Sorry if I offended. Do you believe speed brakes to be a crutch? Well, I certainly do not anymore than non-skid brakes, AOA indicators, download weather, stormscopes, autopilots, back up AI's, and many, many more items that we are fortunate enough to be able to install on our airplanes. Now, if you do believe speed brakes or any of the other items mentioned to be a "crutch", then there's not going to be much I will say that won't offend you. Nothing that extends the utility, capability, and safety of an aircraft is a crutch. Jgreen CFII too.
johnggreen Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Jvancecpa, Jud, Kevin has done my work for over ten years now. When I bought the Bravo, I took it to MSC for the first three annuals. Each time, I had to take it to Kevin to fix what they either overlooked or screwed up. For the forth annual, I bought the Bravo service manual and took it to Kevin. I've been perfectly satisfied since then. I am very pro-active on maintenance and replace all wear items at about 70% of the way into Mean Time Between Failure. I even had a leaking tank that he fixed successfully. If you are going to use him, buy the Ovation (I think that is what you have) service manuals and take the airplane to him consistently so he gets to know the airplane. The Bravo is there now having the prop overhauled, both alternators replaced, and the speed brakes gone through (at the factory). I also get him to do a kind of half annual at six months which means a close inspection of the airplane, turbo, exhaust, engine mounts, belts, tires, brakes, etc., you know all those "crutches" as well as a compression check. I also let him change the oil(instead of doing it myself), just so he can do a once over while the cowling is off. Look forward to meeting you. Jgreen CFII too!
M016576 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Yes, the are faster aircraft out there without speed brakes.The all are jets and turboprops with much higher Vno and Vne. It's not a luxury when my engines is 70K and my cruise bumps me up against the yellow arc all the time.
johnggreen Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Job, Thanks so much for all the flying tips. Jgreen
M016576 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Quote: johnggreen Job, Sorry if I offended. Do you believe speed brakes to be a crutch? Well, I certainly do not anymore than non-skid brakes, AOA indicators, download weather, stormscopes, autopilots, back up AI's, and many, many more items that we are fortunate enough to be able to install on our airplanes. Now, if you do believe speed brakes or any of the other items mentioned to be a "crutch", then there's not going to be much I will say that won't offend you. Nothing that extends the utility, capability, and safety of an aircraft is a crutch. Jgreen CFII too.
HopePilot Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Maybe we should turn our planes into tailwheels, 'cause tricycle gear is obviously a crutch. Speed brakes allow you to go faster, for longer into your descent, and I'm pretty sure fast is a major reason we fly Mooneys. Long, easy, descents from 40 miles out are for Cessnas.
gregwatts Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Quote: M016576 Not quite sure where you're going with this, but I'll bite anyway. If you're worried about exceeding yellow line in turbulent conditions, you should probably fly maneuvering speed to avoid structural damage, or throttle back and set a slightly slower cruise. Speed brakes won't save you in this scenario, although they will allow you to not have to manipulate the engine (at the cost of fuel, though) If you're talking about your descent, then you should probably be throttling back rather than deploying speed brakes, as you'll be saving fuel instead of powering into the drag. If you're worried about shock cooling, you can just start to decelerate sooner and at a more gradual pace... This is probably a more optimal course of execution, as eventually you're going to have to throttle back anyway. The only time I can see them as being a nice to have is if you allow yourself to be driven by a controller too close to the airport prior to descent: the extra sink rate could salvage an approach where you're already behind the air raft. Of course, if you have them, then you may choose to do a steeper descent on all your descents: if you practice a normal gradient descent from time to time then this may not be a bad thing, but I would put it squarely in the neutral column. If you're talking about ifr approaches, I have yet to see either a high or low approach that says "speed brakes required." Im not saying they aren't a nice to have. If you bought your mooney with them already installed, then have fun with them. What I'm saying is that you can fly just as safely and probably more efficiently without ever deploying them. Caveat all I'm saying with the following: while I've flown four jets with speed brakes, two turboprops without and a slew of GA aircraft, I have never flown a mooney with boards. So I guess you could say I'm armchair quarterbacking this thread!
M016576 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Quote: HopePilot Maybe we should turn our planes into tailwheels, 'cause tricycle gear is obviously a crutch. Speed brakes allow you to go faster, for longer into your descent, and I'm pretty sure fast is a major reason we fly Mooneys. Long, easy, descents from 40 miles out are for Cessnas.
aviatoreb Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Quote: Parker_Woodruff I wouldn't either. But for those of us with them pre-installed who wouldn't otherwise put them on, they are kinda cool, and sometimes useful.
MooneyMitch Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Can't we just please discuss LOP vs. ROP or wet wings vs. bladders?
Jvancecpa Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 I just wanted some advice on one of my brakes not deploying! I do thank everyone for input. Jvancecpa
MooneyMitch Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 The cool thing about MooneySpace, is you mostly get more than you ask for!!!
johnggreen Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Gentleman, Job CFII, The initial post was an inquiry as to how those of us endowed with speed brakes use them. I replied to that post with a full compliment of the ways that I use mine. Perhaps the secret is that I have the pilot skills to use them effectively. I said, and I repeat, I have heard amateurish comments that such equipment is a crutch. There are some highly competent pilots on this site who can offer truly sage advice and recounts of very valuable experience to those who are trying to learn or improve their pilot skills. I don't often see their posts. To refer to equipment as valuable as speed brakes as "a crutch" (which I have seen on this blog previously) is amateurish. To spend your time justifying the reasons as to why you don't need them, because you don't have them, is childish. My replies were countered by Job, CFII, with advice on how I could exercise my pilot skills better and without speed brakes. I did not ask for any critques and don't give a rat's ass as to Job's,CFII, opinion. If he or any of you have any legitimate comments as to how you utilize speed brakes, it would be pertinent to respond to the post. Jgreen
gregwatts Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 If you have to rely on speed brakes, then your airplane exceeds your piloting abilities........just sayin'!
M016576 Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 Quote: johnggreen Gentleman, Job CFII, The initial post was an inquiry as to how those of us endowed with speed brakes use them. I replied to that post with a full compliment of the ways that I use mine. Perhaps the secret is that I have the pilot skills to use them effectively. I said, and I repeat, I have heard amateurish comments that such equipment is a crutch. There are some highly competent pilots on this site who can offer truly sage advice and recounts of very valuable experience to those who are trying to learn or improve their pilot skills. I don't often see their posts. To refer to equipment as valuable as speed brakes as "a crutch" (which I have seen on this blog previously) is amateurish. To spend your time justifying the reasons as to why you don't need them, because you don't have them, is childish. My replies were countered by Job, CFII, with advice on how I could exercise my pilot skills better and without speed brakes. I did not ask for any critques and don't give a rat's ass as to Job's,CFII, opinion. If he or any of you have any legitimate comments as to how you utilize speed brakes, it would be pertinent to respond to the post. Jgreen
xftrplt Posted January 7, 2012 Report Posted January 7, 2012 As the FO reached for the SB lever after being given a quick descent by ATC the salty 727 captain snarled: Damnit! Those are for my mistakes...not his. That said, I, captain of my 231, will often use them from "the perch" to final, and sometimes to TD. ---- One day, far away and long ago, there was a pilot who wasn't completely full of $hit. But that was far away, long ago, just one day...and just one pilot.
jetdriven Posted January 8, 2012 Report Posted January 8, 2012 Quote: Parker_Woodruff I fly my Mooney to Don Maxwell in Longview, TX (GGG) for the big stuff like Annuals.
jetdriven Posted January 8, 2012 Report Posted January 8, 2012 Every time I grabbed the speed brakes in a jet, I felt like a fool because I didnt pull power 2 minutes earlier. Occasionally a controller needs them because he screwed up, but not often. Those are not mandatory. Can't you just slow the airplane down at FL160 if you are gettign tight, and then crowbar it down? The gear makes a hell of a speedbrake, if you really need it. Bonanzas don't have spedbrakes either. Just sayin
Parker_Woodruff Posted January 8, 2012 Report Posted January 8, 2012 Quote: jetdriven Parker leaves it there as the annual takes 12 months to do. Then it is due again. He does get to test fly it occasionally. I think Don painted the outline of the 252 on the floor where his is parked :)))
ghovey Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 The times when you fly into congested airspace and ATC Dumps you into the approach, or like in Tucson coming over the hill and Approach says keep your speed up and you are descending at 215 knots groundspeed and then two miles from the runway says "resume normal speed contact tower" sure you can go around, or pop the brakes pull up the nose, drop the gear and land. Speed brakes are great, but I actually don't use them that often.
xftrplt Posted January 9, 2012 Report Posted January 9, 2012 Quote: ghovey The times when you fly into congested airspace and ATC Dumps you into the approach, or like in Tucson coming over the hill and Approach says keep your speed up and you are descending at 215 knots groundspeed and then two miles from the runway says "resume normal speed contact tower" sure you can go around, or pop the brakes pull up the nose, drop the gear and land.
PTK Posted January 10, 2012 Report Posted January 10, 2012 Quote: pjsny78 I must have not made a clear post. One of my speed brakes went inop! The right deploys and the left doesnot. Any suggestions as to what I should possibly look at as to fixing the problem. I love the speed brakes and use them all the time. It's just one of the will not deploy. I am flying home tomorrow and will leave them stowed and just monitor my speed. But I am anal with regards of everything working properly on my plane and thought someone might have a suggestion as to a quick fix before I fly tomorrow. Thanks Overhaul may be due. i was looking in my log books and the previous owner had to get myne overhauled.
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