Shoulder Harness Upgrade

[PAULA DEML]

Can fixed belts be added to the rear seats?

 

Not usually unless they are already back there,or were intended to be there (hard points).  We haven't found enough structure to securely attach them.

[DaV8or]

He also said that the cover could easily be trimmed using a dremmel tool if the opening is not big enough.

 

That's exactly what I was planning on using. It's on the list and I'll get to it one day. I have loads of projects.

[PAULA DEML]

Mooneys have the same structure behind the rear seats as they do behind the front seats. Steel tubes. Yet, you seem to be right that there are no rear seat shoulder harness options out there. At least there aren't for us vintage Mooney guys. I wonder why? Would rear seat shoulder harnesses enhance safety over the old standard airline lean-forward-and-cradle-your-hands-over-your-head crash readiness position?

It is great having you here with us, Paula, by the way. Thank you for your participation on MooneySpace.

Jim

 

Hey Jim - Thank you.  I don't have all the answers, but I'm not afraid to admit it and ask someone who knows!

 

I was pretty sure I knew the answer to your question, but I checked with Don and he confirmed my thoughts;

The front Mooney shoulder belts attach to the tube structure.  On the older aircraft - there is not enough tube structure to support a rear shoulder belt attachment. On the later Mooney's they added another horizontal tube above each passenger window to support the shoulder belts load.  The only way around this would be to weld in the additional tube - not really very practical.

 

The other option is to obtain a fuselage, try to attach the rear shoulder belt to the skin structure at which time a pull test would need to be performed to determine if it would hold.  When we did the Beech and Piper tests I believe we had to pass 9G's without any structural / equipment failings to be considered "approved". This was with the FAA present at the testing.

 

Yes, a shoulder harness would increase the safety of the rear seat passengers.  Long answer short; We haven't found a good way to do it!

[Bennett]

Close to the subject. Does anyone know what happened to the airbag lap / shoulder belt that was supposed to be STCed for the Js. The newest Mooneys have them (along with newer Cessnas and others). As I recall, there was a great deal of talk about them around a year ago, and then nothing more. I think the company is Aero-Safe, and the NTSB made some recommendations that airbags should be in general aviation aircraft. Still think they would be a good idea, but with a bunch of them out there in various Mooneys and Cessnas, and others (Cirrus?) I haven't heard that they "saved" anyone from harm, or at least from major harm.

[Bennett]

The company is Am-Safe, and they list the M20Ks as being capable of retrofit. Interesting since the M20J and the M20K are both mid-length bodies, and I was always told that except for the engines, the early 1980s Js and Ks were identical. I'll check with them next week to ask about what is holding up retrofitting the Js via a STC. I seem to recall that the price was going to be in the area of $3500.

[DaV8or]

The company is Am-Safe, and they list the M20Ks as being capable of retrofit. Interesting since the M20J and the M20K are both mid-length bodies, and I was always told that except for the engines, the early 1980s Js and Ks were identical. I'll check with them next week to ask about what is holding up retrofitting the Js via a STC. I seem to recall that the price was going to be in the area of $3500.

I believe they are available for the J and Richard Heitzman here on our forums works for them. He can tell you all. Here is the link to his profile and you can send him a PM.

 

Richardheitzman

 

I wish the vintage Mooneys could have them too. They are an excellent idea in my mind.

[richardheitzman]

I have completed all the engineering efforts to add the M20J and the remaining M20K. Right now it is about assets internally at the company. Last year I was unable to secure assets for the STC development, but I am pushing hard this year. I'll let you know if I get it pushed through.

 

R

[carusoam]

Way to go R....

Your efforts are going to help somebody in a big way someday.

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F-1968]

I have my own twist on this subject. I took all the seats, seat belts and interior from a 1998 Ovation. I have the inertia reel fron seat belts installed. The IR is welded to the steel cage and the D ring is also welded to the cage. The rear seat belts/shoulder harnesses are attached to the rear bulkhead via a bracket and doubler structurally designed and approved by my DER, installed and signed off. My DER blessed and signed off all the installations. Works well like the original Ovation installation. As for the fuel selector, I designed and built a riser which is bolted and permanently installed to the fuel selector. It raises the selector handle about 3" above the floor so it is more easily operated when necessary. The IR shoulder harnbesses and the fuel selector riser eliminates the problems mentioned above. The fuel selector riser is also DER approved, signed off and legal. John Breda

[Bennett]

Richard, would a poll of M20 J owners as to their interest in retrofitting air bags be of help to your efforts? Do I also understand that some K models are not under the existing STCs.

[DaV8or]

I have completed all the engineering efforts to add the M20J and the remaining M20K. Right now it is about assets internally at the company. Last year I was unable to secure assets for the STC development, but I am pushing hard this year. I'll let you know if I get it pushed through.

 

R

 

I don't get it. What is the difference in airframe from a J to a K? Why wouldn't you work on the J first as there are more potential customers out there than there is for the K? Is it just FAA paperwork nonsense?

[richardheitzman]

 poll for M20J / K owners would be great. The Kit is only certified for the last 20+ M20K that had shoulder harness as standard equipment.

 

Little busy this week. I will put a poll together next week or this weekend if I have a change.

 

R

[fantom]

Didn't they cost a couple of grand from the factory? Hope I'm wrong, but to get a reasonable poll, you need an approximate installed cost, Richard.

[rbridges]

I would have gotten the inertial reel at least on the pilots side. You have to unclip the shoulder harness to reach the fuel selector on the floor in a 1977 or earlier Mooney.

 

EDIT: we have the fixed straps.

 

that's where they aggravate me the most--reaching for the fuel selector.  

[richardheitzman]

I posted a Poll in the General Forum area.

 

Thanks

 

R

[tfloyd]

I have completed the install of the shoulder harnesses in my 1967 M20F (Amsafe IR Reels purchased from Alpha Aviation).  As others have noted before, the most difficult part was attaching the clamp on the pilot side.  I finally got it on by inserting from back to front then rotating the clamp into position.  The shoulder harness work wells.  I completed a test flight and was able to move freely and the shoulder harness was comfortable.  The harness reel seems to fit a little tight against the interior and I would have like to have a fraction more room between the reel and interior molding.  Paula at Alpha Aviation suggested adding washers and possible a longer bolt if needed. 

[Jim Peace]

I am about to add shoulder harnesses to my 1964 M20C.  I like the Alpha IR but Gary at LASAR is trying to sell me on the fixed belt they offer.  There are good reasons for both.

 

Now that this thread is a bit older and more people that installed the Alpha IR belts have more experience can you tell me if you have issues with them locking up when you don't want them to.

 

Does anyone have the fixed belts from LASAR and how are they?

 

Thank you

 

Jim 

Van Nuys

[1964-M20E]

I just reinstalled the shoulder belts in mine for some reason I think when the interior was redone by the previous owner they were not re-installed but the brackets were there.  I have the fixed belts and you do notice when trying to close the door or change tanks the fixed do restrict your motion.  While flying I unhook the shoulder belt so that I can change fuel tanks when needed.  If you want to go with the inertia reels (IR) and you already have allocated the funds to do so then I’d go with the IR type most likely more comfortable overall and they will keep the shoulder belt resting gently on you the whole time.

[pirate]

I have the fixed. I only tighten shoulder harness during takeoff and landing. Takes a second to loosen or tighten, no big deal.

[Jim Peace]

I have the fixed. I only tighten shoulder harness during takeoff and landing. Takes a second to loosen or tighten, no big deal.

Can you reach the fuel selector just by loosening it or do you have to unclip it?

 

Also which ones do you have? LASAR or Alpha etc?

[Andy95W]

I put the LASAR belts in my 67 C, I put the Alpha inertial reels in my 64. The fixed harness worked good with electric gear, I'm glad I got the inertia reels with manual gear! And yes, it is a lot easier to reach the fuel selector. Installation was about the same, either way. If you get the Alphas, definitely consider the push button releases. I've heard of people unlatching their seat belts while swinging their gear.

[carusoam]

+1 on the jbar / seatbelt challenge in 65C...

Somebody should get that detail worked out. The traffic pattern is not a good place to have your safety equipment disabled...

-a-

[Jim Peace]

+1 on the jbar / seatbelt challenge in 65C...

Somebody should get that detail worked out. The traffic pattern is not a good place to have your safety equipment disabled...

-a-

So what are you recommending? the IR or fixed?

[carusoam]

I have the IR, looking to go towards airbag technology...(front seats)

Airbags are available for long bodies.

Get as much proven safety technology as the budget can afford (general personal guidance).

I bought the fixed belts for the C.

The fixed belts are a challenge to remain being used to. Our cars help us get used to moving to reach things while being belted in place. The IR will be less annoying...

Both IR and fixed will leave marks on the human body during an accident...both are better than hitting your face into the IP. Performance wise I am not aware of any differences...

The problem with the disconnecting seat belt while lowering the gear, comes with the latch mechanism of the seatbelt. The seat belts can be swapped L/R to move the buckle away from the j-bar. But, that doesn't work with the shoulder harness. Changing out this type of latch would work we'll but requires some supplier effort...

Keep in mind, I am a PP, not a safety expert or mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[1964-M20E]

I put the LASAR belts in my 67 C, I put the Alpha inertial reels in my 64. The fixed harness worked good with electric gear, I'm glad I got the inertia reels with manual gear! And yes, it is a lot easier to reach the fuel selector. Installation was about the same, either way. If you get the Alphas, definitely consider the push button releases. I've heard of people unlatching their seat belts while swinging their gear.

With the fixed shoulder belt I have not found reaching the J-bar to be a problem but I’m 6’-2” and I can comfortably reach the floor while sitting straight up in the plane.  Now if I try to close the door using both hands with the shoulder belt I am restricted as well as trying to get to the fuel selector valve. 

 

The fuel vale is a pain to reach no matter what.

While in cruise flight I will unlatch the shoulder belt.  When I start my decent I make sure I switch tanks if necessary before buckling up.

 

Unlike a car you generally have some time to prepare for impact should it be necessary.