Ovation 1 to Ovation 3 via the Midwest STC

[LANCECASPER]

I will make one response on this and then I'll leave it alone

In the other post about taking out liquid Rocket engine for from the M20L (Mooney Porsche) and putting in the IO-550, although I don't condone using an STC without permission, I can understand the frustration of an owner with an airplane that may have been effectively grounded. (Although there are people that still maintain this TSOIL-550 engine/powerplant combination). If there was a way of him doing this legally I was all for it. I sent a link to him to find all of the owners of M20Ls on the FAA registry to perhaps put together the information you would need to accomplish this. It did seem strange to me that he would buy all of the parts to do this without any legal basis for installation and then scramble to try to make it legal - asking multiple times a day how soon someone could get him the paperwork.

However, when he posted on this thread about now asking for similar paperwork for the 310 hp STC, I felt like I had been duped. That STC is available for sale? Perhaps not for his IO-550 I'm not sure, but that wasn't even my point. Why not first look into buying the STC, like everyone else that has it has done? The thought of actually buying this STC did not seem to have entered his mind. That bothered me a lot since I regard the people on Mooneyspace as people who aren't going to do that. Where does it stop? Does he now get the paperwork for long range tanks and do that, even though the STC is available for sure for his airplane. In the last almost 12 years I've been on Mooneyspace I've come to respect the people on here - they respect the amount of time, money and effort that goes into developing these STCs. If one is available, they buy it. Aviation is an expensive activity.

Personally, I have a 280hp TSIO-550 Continental on my airplane. I would really like the 310hp STC. With all of the expense of purchasing the Acclaim and getting maintenance caught up and doing a few upgrades, I haven't decided yet whether I'll do it. I suppose I could get copies of the paperwork from friends that have Acclaims and go get the srping changed in my prop governor and probably find an IA that I could convince that I had the legal right to do this. All I'd have to do is get the 2700 rpm displayed on the instrument panel (through software or another tach). But I wouldn't ever do that. If I'm going to enjoy the benefits of the STC I'm going to pay for it. Will I try to get the best deal in doing it legally? For sure. 

I will absolutely admit that I overreacted and should have kept some of my feelings to myself. Can we agree to disagree on this?  It's obvious not everyone has the same thoughts I do on this. That's actually a good thing - that's one of the many reasons I like Mooneyspace. If everyone was a clone of me on here why would I need to come on this site? I come on here for differing opinions. Rather than going back and forth on this - can we let it rest?

[T. Peterson]

3 hours ago, Matías Equiza said:

That person who treated us criminals and  accomplices was @LANCECASPER

Hi Matias,

You have a beautiful airplane and I hope it all works out for you. I think you were very misunderstood, but thanks to some very erudite folks here, your case has been well defended. I would urge you not to become bitter. Lance and the others have a wonderful reputation here and a history of kindness. I don’t know these gentlemen except by reputation and therefore I don’t know why you struck such a nerve, but “ a soft answer turns away wrath.”

Have a blessed day,

Torrey

[ilovecornfields]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

You stated " I think the precedent for respecting IP ownership here has been set." - "The supplemental type certificate ... are the property of the supplemental type certificate holder." .."You must contact the supplemental type certificate holder to seek written permission.".."People here have refused to even include a page of the MAPA PPP course because it’s proprietary"

You are overlooking the many posts of "IP" here on MS over many years involving some of the MSer's that are participating in this current topic. STC's have been posted many times - there were even more before the server change when most pictures were lost.  And in addition, these MS "public posts" likely stimulated more information shared by PM.  Clearly the MSer's posting STC's become identified as sources to go to for more information and detail.

As a result, you are promoting a double standard to chastise @Matías Equiza for reasons that I don't understand.

• December 7, 2016 - M016576 posted images of the STC pack from his M20J Missile Rocket Engineering conversion mainly related to GW increase. @carusoam actively participated in the 3 page discussion. (pictures now lost due to server change)
• May 1, 2018  - Jerry Pressley posted images of 4 STC's and the power charts for a M20C RayJay turbo conversion. @carusoam praised him "Nice details Jerry"
• On October 18, 2020 Adversyaw posted images of 2 STC's for the M20K Rocket Conversion. @carusoam participated.
• On January 28, 2022 I posted the image of the Oil Drain (Auto-Valve Inc) STC for the Missile Rocket Engineering conversion 
• On February 22, 2022, HawkGT posted the image of the Mod Squad 261 Thunderbird STC. @LANCECASPER participated in that discussion multiple times.

NEVER ONCE DURING THIS PERIOD WAS ANYONE ON MS CAUTIONED TO NOT POST STC'S, NOT POST PERFORMANCE DETAILS, NOT SHARE INFORMATION RELATED TO THEIR STC'S. NOT PM STC INFORMATION. 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent summary! The very next line in my post said that if he’d asked nicely he probably still would have received the information he wanted. Sounds like someone did take time out of their day to provide him with very useful information without any sort of compensation. Then he asked for more information,  didn’t like the response and then the insults started and the exchange of information stopped. It’s surprising to me that it’s surprising to people that this is not a helpful way to ask for favors.

Having spent a lot of time in Latin America, I can assure you that insulting people and subsequently asking for favors works just about as well there as it does here. 

[1980Mooney]

26 minutes ago, HawkGT said:

@1980Mooney The FAA offers electronic copies of STCs through their own database (https://drs.faa.gov/browse) so sharing them on a public forum does not challenge an STC holders IP.  The real IP is in the design drawings held by the STC owner and their ability to issue an authorization letter to install the STC.  I did not go through all the referenced posts but for mine the only thing being asked for was that which the FAA makes publicly available.

I agree with you completely.  I did not reference you with the "@" invite because I did not mean to drag you into this mess.  Until this topic/thread there was never a problem talking about, referencing and sharing details related to STC's.  Truth be known I bet there has been plenty "real IP" shared behind the scenes in PM's in an attempt to keep alive our fleet of so-called "active STC's" that many/most in reality are no longer sold, unsupported, left for dead in bankrupt estates, abandoned etc. The situation with Mooney STC's will only get worse over time.  Every month the fleet shrinks.  The few truly active STC holders are getting older and older.  For instance the owner of Rocket Engineering is in his 70's and there is still some level of support for Rocket and Missile conversions.  However I have no illusions that they will be around in another 10 years to continue to support my Missile STC - but I won't be flying anymore so who cares.  The Mod Works/Mod Squad STC debacle will likely never get cleaned up and supported although the FAA will list them as "Active" forever.

Let's face it - the FAA STC process is an American invention that is far from perfect.  Where else do you have to spend ~$6,000 to operate your engine at the speed Continental designed it to run? - i.e. Increase RPM from 2400 to 2700 on the Screaming Eagle and increase from 2500 to 2700 for Ovations?  OMG - I JUST DISCLOSED IN PUBLIC THE MAIN (ACTUALLY SOLE) "REAL IP" IN THE MARKETING NON-INVENTION "INVENTION" IN THIS STC !

All kidding aside I just did a search and noticed that about 15 Mooney's actively registered and flown have been converted from Certified to Experimental (excludes Factory mules).  It includes 4 "J"s, 1 "K", an Ovation, 3 "E"s.  The rest Bs and Cs.  Perhaps that is the future to allow owners more flexibility to deal with diminishing support for a shrinking fleet.

Spare yourself reading the details of this thread - rather than being the usual free flow of helpful guidance it is full of acrimony, accusations of theft, labeling of accomplices and partners in crime as well as some illusive threshold of "precedent".  

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

Excellent summary! The very next line in my post said that if he’d asked nicely he probably still would have received the information he wanted. Sounds like someone did take time out of their day to provide him with very useful information without any sort of compensation. Then he asked for more information,  didn’t like the response and then the insults started and the exchange of information stopped. It’s surprising to me that it’s surprising to people that this is not a helpful way to ask for favors.

Having spent a lot of time in Latin America, I can assure you that insulting people and subsequently asking for favors works just about as well there as it does here. 

Thanks but it sort of sounds like you have a grudge against Mathias because of his poor English communication while you, as you say having grown up in Latin America, are well fluent in both.  I have lived my life in states bordering Mexico.  I know that if I tried to chat in a Spanish speaking forum in Spanish I would probably insult everyone and be totally misunderstood.  I bet everyone would be calling me an Arrogant Gringo asking for favors as well as lecturing me to use more "miel" (honey?).

Regarding your comment "Sounds like someone did take time out of their day to provide him with very useful information without any sort of compensation."  Doesn't @M20Doc do that all the time?!

[ilovecornfields]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Thanks but it sort of sounds like you have a grudge against Mathias because of his poor English communication while you, as you say having grown up in Latin America, are well fluent in both.  I have lived my life in states bordering Mexico.  I know that if I tried to chat in a Spanish speaking forum in Spanish I would probably insult everyone and be totally misunderstood.  I bet everyone would be calling me an Arrogant Gringo asking for favors as well as lecturing me to use more "miel" (honey?).

Regarding your comment "Sounds like someone did take time out of their day to provide him with very useful information without any sort of compensation."  Doesn't @M20Doc do that all the time?!

I feel like we’re doing a really good job of not communicating with each other. Is sounds like you have an agenda and a point you’re trying to make and I’m not really sure how the facts support it.

I have no grudge against Mathias for his poor English skills. Just the opposite. I have a lot of empathy for him because when I first came to the US I had a horrible accent and struggled to learn English. I remembering not knowing what “name” was in kindergarten so I would just copy the person next to me. This ended when we had a parent-teacher conference where the teacher produced all of the “duplicate” assignments that had been turned in and asked me why I was copying my neighbor (which was clearly undeniable). I finally confessed that I didn’t know what that word meant and I was too embarrassed to ask.

 If you went on a Spanish speaking forum and called someone a cabron would they call you an Arrogant Gringo for asking a question or would they call you that for insulting someone and then expecting to get a helpful response? The insult was not accidental, it was very deliberate. If it had been a misunderstanding, then there have been plenty of opportunities to correct that misunderstanding which have not been taken.

To some people, being “right” is more important that accomplishing their goal. The point I was trying to make is that if you’re asking someone for a favor, don’t be a cabron. If you are rude or insulting, then it is a very reasonable expectation that people will be much less likely to help you. I didn’t realize this was such a controversial statement. Sheesh!

[1980Mooney]

2 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I feel like we’re doing a really good job of not communicating with each other. Is sounds like you have an agenda and a point you’re trying to make and I’m not really sure how the facts support it.

I have no grudge against Mathias for his poor English skills. Just the opposite. I have a lot of empathy for him because when I first came to the US I had a horrible accent and struggled to learn English. I remembering not knowing what “name” was in kindergarten so I would just copy the person next to me. This ended when we had a parent-teacher conference where the teacher produced all of the “duplicate” assignments that had been turned in and asked me why I was copying my neighbor (which was clearly undeniable). I finally confessed that I didn’t know what that word meant and I was too embarrassed to ask.

 If you went on a Spanish speaking forum and called someone a cabron would they call you an Arrogant Gringo for asking a question or would they call you that for insulting someone and then expecting to get a helpful response? The insult was not accidental, it was very deliberate. If it had been a misunderstanding, then there have been plenty of opportunities to correct that misunderstanding which have not been taken.

To some people, being “right” is more important that accomplishing their goal. The point I was trying to make is that if you’re asking someone for a favor, don’t be a cabron. If you are rude or insulting, then it is a very reasonable expectation that people will be much less likely to help you. I didn’t realize this was such a controversial statement. Sheesh!

No agenda.  I just find it amazing that are able to deduce exactly what one's intent is on these faceless, voiceless, impersonal chat sites dashed off on an iphone or multitasking computer with mispellings, missing words, autospell f-ups- all deduced with 100% absolute certainty - no chance, zero, that you might be misinterpreting anything.  That's a great gift.

BTW...if I am a "cabron" are you calling me a male goat or a bastard or a badass or an asshole or a buddy or a brothel keeper or....

[ilovecornfields]

16 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

No agenda.  I just find it amazing that are able to deduce exactly what one's intent is on these faceless, voiceless, impersonal chat sites dashed off on an iphone or multitasking computer with mispellings, missing words, autospell f-ups- all deduced with 100% absolute certainty - no chance, zero, that you might be misinterpreting anything.  That's a great gift.

BTW...if I am a "cabron" are you calling me a male goat or a bastard or a badass or an asshole or a buddy or a brothel keeper or....

I think you’re the only one claiming any absolute certainty in deducing anyones intentions. I’m just saying “don’t be an a-hole” and if you insult someone, then you probably won’t get what you want. Why is that so difficult to accept?

[Matías Equiza]

On 11/8/2022 at 12:01 PM, T. Peterson said:

Hi Matias,

You have a beautiful airplane and I hope it all works out for you. I think you were very misunderstood, but thanks to some very erudite folks here, your case has been well defended. I would urge you not to become bitter. Lance and the others have a wonderful reputation here and a history of kindness. I don’t know these gentlemen except by reputation and therefore I don’t know why you struck such a nerve, but “ a soft answer turns away wrath.”

Have a blessed day,

Torrey

Thank you so much Torrey!!! I am gratefull with you. I don't have doubts about @LANCECASPERreputation, but I don't know why he has reacted as he did with me 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Matías Equiza

[Matías Equiza]

On 11/8/2022 at 11:56 AM, LANCECASPER said:

I will make one response on this and then I'll leave it alone

In the other post about taking out liquid Rocket engine for from the M20L (Mooney Porsche) and putting in the IO-550, although I don't condone using an STC without permission, I can understand the frustration of an owner with an airplane that may have been effectively grounded. (Although there are people that still maintain this TSOIL-550 engine/powerplant combination). If there was a way of him doing this legally I was all for it. I sent a link to him to find all of the owners of M20Ls on the FAA registry to perhaps put together the information you would need to accomplish this. It did seem strange to me that he would buy all of the parts to do this without any legal basis for installation and then scramble to try to make it legal - asking multiple times a day how soon someone could get him the paperwork.

However, when he posted on this thread about now asking for similar paperwork for the 310 hp STC, I felt like I had been duped. That STC is available for sale? Perhaps not for his IO-550 I'm not sure, but that wasn't even my point. Why not first look into buying the STC, like everyone else that has it has done? The thought of actually buying this STC did not seem to have entered his mind. That bothered me a lot since I regard the people on Mooneyspace as people who aren't going to do that. Where does it stop? Does he now get the paperwork for long range tanks and do that, even though the STC is available for sure for his airplane. In the last almost 12 years I've been on Mooneyspace I've come to respect the people on here - they respect the amount of time, money and effort that goes into developing these STCs. If one is available, they buy it. Aviation is an expensive activity.

Personally, I have a 280hp TSIO-550 Continental on my airplane. I would really like the 310hp STC. With all of the expense of purchasing the Acclaim and getting maintenance caught up and doing a few upgrades, I haven't decided yet whether I'll do it. I suppose I could get copies of the paperwork from friends that have Acclaims and go get the srping changed in my prop governor and probably find an IA that I could convince that I had the legal right to do this. All I'd have to do is get the 2700 rpm displayed on the instrument panel (through software or another tach). But I wouldn't ever do that. If I'm going to enjoy the benefits of the STC I'm going to pay for it. Will I try to get the best deal in doing it legally? For sure. 

I will absolutely admit that I overreacted and should have kept some of my feelings to myself. Can we agree to disagree on this?  It's obvious not everyone has the same thoughts I do on this. That's actually a good thing - that's one of the many reasons I like Mooneyspace. If everyone was a clone of me on here why would I need to come on this site? I come on here for differing opinions. Rather than going back and forth on this - can we let it rest?

perfectly understanding your point of view, but you did not fully understand my point of view and this remained a general misunderstanding. When this plane was bought in the United States, it had many engine problems. The owner before me here in Argentina made the modifications by copying the work done on another plane. When I bought it, I had to enable it as TSIOL since it was actually inside the plane. there was an IO and I didn't want this situation to continue, for that reason I began to investigate and found that there was a Mod Works STC in the past that no longer exists today, for that reason I asked for help because I want to have a plane in perfect condition papers. If they helped me with the stc, the Argentine authorities would approve an ITA made by an aeronautical technician based on a document that existed in the United States, that was all, nobody wanted to copy anything, much less steal and make it public in a forum, that's crazy . I hope this has been taken as a lesson for everyone. Empathy brings good things. Thank you all

[Andy95W]

It may be time to agree to disagree, and just drop the whole thing.

[T. Peterson]

6 minutes ago, Matías Equiza said:

Thank you so much Torrey!!! I am gratefull with you. I don't have doubts about @LANCECASPERreputation, but I don't know what he has reacted as he did with me 

I think Lance may have just misunderstood your motivation. In his last post he sounded reconciliatory. You guys may never be best friends, but hopefully the angst and anger will diminish to the point of sincere cordiality.

 I am pretty new to Mooney ownership and new to MS. I am not sure if you are also new, but welcome aboard anyway! Many wonderful people on this board, and I am sure you are one of them…..and so is Lance and the others. Fortunately or unfortunately, most of us are probably type A personalities! LOL! Therefore debates can become heated and occasionally overheated. Sometimes we just have to swallow our pride and let things go. As Proverbs says, “ It is to a man’s glory to overlook an offense.”

Torrey

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, T. Peterson said:

I am pretty new to Mooney ownership and new to MS. I am not sure if you are also new, but welcome aboard anyway!…

Tip - if you click on the image next to the persons name it will bring up their web page. It shows joining date. Matias joined October 26. 

[Matías Equiza]

7 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

I think Lance may have just misunderstood your motivation. In his last post he sounded reconciliatory. You guys may never be best friends, but hopefully the angst and anger will diminish to the point of sincere cordiality.

 I am pretty new to Mooney ownership and new to MS. I am not sure if you are also new, but welcome aboard anyway! Many wonderful people on this board, and I am sure you are one of them…..and so is Lance and the others. Fortunately or unfortunately, most of us are probably type A personalities! LOL! Therefore debates can become heated and occasionally overheated. Sometimes we just have to swallow our pride and let things go. As Proverbs says, “ It is to a man’s glory to overlook an offense.”

Torrey

Thank you so much, all is as you are telling us