Mathematically crazy insurance premium increase

[Becca]

So we finally got with our insurance to add the value of the new engine to the insured value of the aircraft.

Just so you know if you are doing an overhaul, the terms of our policy, at least, is they will cover you for a 20% value increase temporarily (30 days) after a major modification before you have to report the new value to your company and pay a premium for a difference in insured value

Anyway, our 20J was insured for $80k before the new engine. This was a bit overinsured for us, we had estimated the replacement value of the plane was about $70k-ish, but wanted to be free to go buy a new plane following a major totalling accident with minimum drama. After much discussion, we decided that with the new Lycoming overhaul we wanted to insured for $95k, which is probably still a bit over insured, but closer to the real value. Doing quick math, this represents an 18% increase in hull value.

We just got the invoice from the insurance agent for the premium different:

$1,618.00 New Hull Premium

$1,118.00 Current Hull Premium

Change = $ 500.00

$500.00

X .332 pro-rate

Prorated amount due = $166.00

(Note that is not the total policy price, its nearly an additional $1000 for the liability portion of the policy, can't remember the exact value.)

My math shows they are increasing the rate of our hull insurance by 44% ($500) to cover the 18% increase in hull value. I am a little appalled. Is this normal? We insure through Falcon - is this just a failure of my agent to negotiate with the insurance company? We are pretty locked into an insurance company because we have an open claim, and so all the other companies declined to quote this year - still we thought the rate we were paying was in family with what other people in our area was paying.

[Cruiser]

It may have more to do with the open claim than anything else.

My physical damage premium is $813 for an insured value of $110,000

[jetdriven]

[Skywarrior]

^{When you're free and clear of Falcon, call Josh Jabour at Aircraft Insurance Agency by Duncan, Waxahachie, TX. They can arrange insurance for about half what you're paying.}

[Becca]

So I have to issue a reclama. I may have explained some math for the insurance agent and she just replied:

I do apologize I called the underwriter and their system incorrectly calculated the premium. The pro-rated premium due would be $69.72

$1328.00 New Hull Premium

$1118.00 Current Hull

$ 210.00

$210.00

X .332 pro-rate

$ 69.72

Whew, huge relief. Also it pays to know how to do math. Take that NY Times guy that says high schools should do math any more because its "too hard" and not needed in the real world. http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

[scottfromiowa]

To add an instrument rated pilot to my existing policy...1M/100k Liability and $70k hull

He has over 300 hours and over 25 in type...

Premium just me $1294/year

For three months (to renewal in December) $200

Premium increase/year $400

Global

THAT is a head scratcher...

[N601RX]

I've had problems in the past with insurance companies not wanting to increase the hull coverage after upgrades or a new engine. I had to provide documentation and it still took several phone calls from my agent to get them to agree to up the coverage. I've had this happen a couple of times with different planes. It seemed that when you 1st purchased a plane they are happy to insure it for any amount you ask for within reason, but very reluctant to increase it at a later time.

[M016576]

Through Falcon, with a 115000 hull value on my 1980 J (new oh on motor, avionics, new paint...)- $1203.0

I had AOPA until I read your discussion about falcon- AOPA was charging me ~1500... Switching to falcon on your advise is saving me huge! Thanks for that Byron... Sounds like that much of an increase is a mistake of some form, particularly with your amount of time and experience... If not, might be time to have falcon float to a new underwriter....

EDIT: just noticed that it was indeed a mistake by the underwriter... Good to hear!

Ps- Scott- like the new signature :-) - There's a building at Edwards named after Ridley......

[aviatoreb]

Whew, huge relief. Also it pays to know how to do math. Take that NY Times guy that says high schools should do math any more because its "too hard" and not needed in the real world. http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

Becca, what does a nice rocket scientist like you know about not needing math?

Yes, I saw that article - it was handed to me by several family members who thought I would be shocked because I am a math professor - and I was. That guy is a political science professor. I would like to see him argue that we don't need reading in schools either since so much of his arguments apply to that as well. Its too hard after all. To see a university educator such as himself argue that education is too hard for regular people and should not be inflicted on the masses I think is simply elitism on his part. Playing to the advancement of other economies of the world to step all over us in the future if people actually believe him.

[flyboy0681]

Me and my two partners just renewed for $1525 for $115k value.

I actually consider this extremely cheap compared to the $7k I pay for my auto policy with two teens.

[larryb]

I've had problems in the past with insurance companies not wanting to increase the hull coverage after upgrades or a new engine. I had to provide documentation and it still took several phone calls from my agent to get them to agree to up the coverage. I've had this happen a couple of times with different planes. It seemed that when you 1st purchased a plane they are happy to insure it for any amount you ask for within reason, but very reluctant to increase it at a later time.

I just had the opposite experience. I upgraded coverage after a new avionics install. One phone call, no documentation. They asked me what equipment I had installed and that was it.

Larry

[mooniac58]

I insure through Wells Fargo who put me with Global Aerospace. This might make you sick but this is what I pay for:

Model: 1987 M20J

Hull Value: $150,000

Pilot Total Time: 700 hrs

Pilot Ratings: ASEL, Instrument

Annual Premium (liability and hull): $1498 ($201 liability, $1297 hull).

I was paying about $900 more per year with Avemco before this switch. Note that I was told NM is one of the cheapest states to insure aircraft plus I insure my business and $100,000 worth of flight simulators with the same master policy so I am likely getting some kind of break there.

As I look to move to a cabin class pressurized twin I dread what the insurance companies might do to me!

[jetdriven]

I insure through Wells Fargo who put me with Global Aerospace. This might make you sick but this is what I pay for:

Model: 1987 M20J

Hull Value: $150,000

Pilot Total Time: 700 hrs

Pilot Ratings: ASEL, Instrument

Annual Premium (liability and hull): $1498 ($201 liability, $1297 hull).

I was paying about $900 more per year with Avemco before this switch. Note that I was told NM is one of the cheapest states to insure aircraft plus I insure my business and $100,000 worth of flight simulators with the same master policy so I am likely getting some kind of break there.

As I look to move to a cabin class pressurized twin I dread what the insurance companies might do to me!

I'd be worried about what the fuel pump and maintenance shop will do to you. I read about a guy who pumped 75K through his plane in one year, and that didnt inlcude gasoline or any engine overhauls.

[carusoam]

Is a turbine any better? Or just too expensive?

-a-

[mooniac58]

Is a turbine any better? Or just too expensive?

-a-

For me a turboprop is just out of my price range. I can get a pressurized twin in this market for $200K - a pressurized turboprop single is $800K at least.

[mooniac58]

I'd be worried about what the fuel pump and maintenance shop will do to you. I read about a guy who pumped 75K through his plane in one year, and that didnt inlcude gasoline or any engine overhauls.

Yep, I have been told to be ready for about $450-$550 per hour operating costs - much of that from maintenance ($200 per hour or so on average). Not much of a choice left - my mission requires something that can haul 800lb+ of people/stuff with 900+ nm range. This is why I aim to keep the Mooney for those shorter company flights with just my business partner or short hops with the family, etc. You just can't beat the $120/hr operating cost of the M20 given its overall performance.

From what I hear I will also be required by the insurance company to take an initial training course (~$8000) and an annual refresher (~$3000).

[N201MKTurbo]

1977 m20J

5000 TT 4500 in Mooneys

$75000

Renewed for $950

[animalmover]

1961 M20B

301 TT 210 Mooney time

$55000

Renewed for $968 yr