Fire in cockpit with ipad

[Tommooney]

Im wondering what others plan for electronics fire while flying? My ipad has gotten too hot and shut down from sun a few times so I try to shade it, also, it needs to charge on long flights while using. I just bought a high watt cigarette lighter charger and started wondering? ( New 65W GaN technology charger)

I started an AI conversation on this and it was a long one ( conversation ? ) about what to do. The fire bags are well over a grand and would probably be out of physical reach in the moment. The fire extinguisher on my plane is unreachable behind the seat with a latch, with questionable effectiveness. The AI plan ended up: keep flying the plane, unplugging charger cable, taking off seat belt, opening the main door, unlatch the burning ipad from the yoke holder with left hand and throw it out door held open with right hand, evacuate smoke, then dealing with the third degree burns on hand and lap of myself and passenger. Gloves would take too long to find and put on.

Better yet, i am buying a new ipad to replace the 8 year old one. Moving first aid kit from baggage compartment to reachable to pilot in drivers seat.

Is there a better plan others know of? Or is the assumption that it won't happen probably ok?

[Schllc]

burn bag

https://brimstonefireprotection.com/collections/fire-containment-bags?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20852794938&gbraid=0AAAAADzoS-NE5PgbS84uAWplI6sW960Xm&gclid=CjwKCAiAoNbIBhB5EiwAZFbYGPlHKLY8vl4t_II0CDMSdu78Gg2bKO6nado6DYHek-ohaZRvvrNm_xoCnOoQAvD_BwE

[MikeOH]

Yeah, I've probably have had too much of a hasn't happened, won't happen to me attitude.

I use my iPad like a lap board; no need to get it detached from a mount.  I always have it charging from a USB port.  My plan, such as it is, would be to unplug it and toss it in the back seat (very rarely, if ever, fly with backseat passengers).  I suppose that means I'm putting the interior flammability rating of the seats to the ultimate test!  Given the mass of the iPad I think the battery is going to destroy itself pretty quickly (a few minutes).  With vents open, and breathing through the pilot window, if I have to, until the fire goes out is the rest of my 'plan'.

Trying to open the door against the wind stream, keep control of the plane, and get a flaming hot iPad out the door gap (especially with my wife in the right seat!) seems implausible to me.  A burn bag might make it more feasible, but won't solve the smoke problem if you can't get it out the door.

[IvanP]

The obvious answer would be to not use a device that is known to have thermal issues (iPad). If that cannot be avoided for whatever reason, then the burn bag would appear to be the next best option. I have no idea who designed the fire extinguisher bracket and location for long body Mooneys (behind the pilot seat). I tried to reach the extinguisher just for practice on the ground few times and my conclusion is that it would be rather difficult, if not impossible, to do while flying the plane in emergency situation. 

The thought of in-flight cabin fire is very frightening. My E had the extinguisher mounted between the seats within easy reach of pilot and co-pilot. 

[Vance Harral]

Whatever solution you choose for the theoretical fire itself, make sure your preparation includes practicing emergency descents to off-airport landings.  The concern is not just how to best contain a fire, but also how fast you can be on the ground if you can't.

Just my opinion, but much of the talk I see on internet forums about emergency scenarios focuses too much on gizmos, and not enough on flying technique.  An hour or two of practicing emergency descents - by yourself or even with a CFI - is a lot cheaper than a $1000 burn bag; and just as likely to save your bacon on a bad day.

[LANCECASPER]

54 minutes ago, Tommooney said:

Im wondering what others plan for electronics fire while flying? My ipad has gotten too hot and shut down from sun a few times so I try to shade it, also, it needs to charge on long flights while using. I just bought a high watt cigarette lighter charger and started wondering? ( New 65W GaN technology charger)

I started an AI conversation on this and it was a long one ( conversation ? ) about what to do. The fire bags are well over a grand and would probably be out of physical reach in the moment. The fire extinguisher on my plane is unreachable behind the seat with a latch, with questionable effectiveness. The AI plan ended up: keep flying the plane, unplugging charger cable, taking off seat belt, opening the main door, unlatch the burning ipad from the yoke holder with left hand and throw it out door held open with right hand, evacuate smoke, then dealing with the third degree burns on hand and lap of myself and passenger. Gloves would take too long to find and put on.

Better yet, i am buying a new ipad to replace the 8 year old one. Moving first aid kit from baggage compartment to reachable to pilot in drivers seat.

Is there a better plan others know of? Or is the assumption that it won't happen probably ok?

You might change the title of this post to a more theoretical title like "What if there was a fire in the cockpit . . . " so that someone isn't thinking that we just lost another Mooney.  But also it's any electronics device with a Lithium Ion battery - phone, tablet, reserve battery, etc. Especially vulnerable are batteries that have been dropped and damaged which can start that thermal process.

[hazek]

Has this scenario ever happened so far that is known?

[LANCECASPER]

27 minutes ago, hazek said:

Has this scenario ever happened so far that is known?

On the ground yes.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/386971

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=7441057339309413&ref=sharing

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=969056591607083&ref=sharing

[MikeOH]

Not to belittle the significance of that situation, but IIRC this was a much larger battery than the one in an iPad. Also, I never heard what got ignited inside the cabin that subsequently engulfed the entire cabin. I find it hard to believe all those flames were just the battery!

Personally, I won’t carry large ‘back up’ battery packs. I limit my lithium risk to my iPhone and iPad internal batteries.

[Andy95W]

Just a thought- Every day, thousands of airline pilots are flying with thousands of iPads safely, and most of them are plugged into a charger.  iPads are very well engineered, very reliable, and very safe.  If they weren’t, the FAA wouldn’t have approved every medium to large airline to use them as their EFBs (Electronic Flight Bags).  The occasional lithium-ion battery fire you hear about are from the cheap devices, not Apple products that have not been subjected to obvious damage.  This is definitely a case of paying more for quality and not cheaping out.

A few specific examples: the Samsung Galaxy Note smart phone has been banned from all air travel by the Department of Transportation since 2016 due to instances of the battery catching fire and exploding.  For the past 20 years, this has not been the case with any iPhone.  Delta Airlines used to provide their pilots with the Microsoft Surface Touch.  But it had so many instances of crashing and slow booting that they bought iPads for their 14,000 pilots.

With all that said, I think it’s prudent to consider not charging from aircraft power unless necessary, and if you do then perhaps use the lowest charging rate available. And of course, to monitor it for damage or overheating.  Just MHO.

[Shadrach]

20 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Not to belittle the significance of that situation, but IIRC this was a much larger battery than the one in an iPad. Also, I never heard what got ignited inside the cabin that subsequently engulfed the entire cabin. I find it hard to believe all those flames were just the battery!

Personally, I won’t carry large ‘back up’ battery packs. I limit my lithium risk to my iPhone and iPad internal batteries.

He had an aircraft cover in the back seat. The lithium ion battery and ADS-B receiver took a near 6' drop to the pavement and were visibly damaged. After verifying that the damaged battery and receiver were damaged and no longer working, our intrepid aviator tossed them on the floor in the back seat and stuffed the plane's cover in the back seat on top of them. 

[MikeOH]

Just now, Shadrach said:

He had an aircraft cove in the back seat. The lithium ion battery and ADS-B receiver took a near 6' drop to the pavement and were visibly damaged. After verifying that the damaged battery and receiver were damaged and no longer working, our intrepid aviator tossed them on the floor in the back seat and stuffed the plane's cover in the back seat on top of them. 

Thanks for those details....I'd like to think I would have been smart enough to toss 'em in the nearest dumpster...and set it on fire

[Shadrach]

37 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Thanks for those details....I'd like to think I would have been smart enough to toss 'em in the nearest dumpster...and set it on fire

One can hope. I would like to think that I would have never done such a thing either. While that is true now with the benefit of seeing what happened to this guy, I'm not so sure that I would have done much better prior to reading this accident report.  I appreciate his sacrifice so that I can be smarter.  

[NickG]

I have a burn bag that I use to store any Lion batteries (such as the one for my mooneymover). Not too worried about an iPad fire but the cheap Chinese Lion batteries are a worry. 

[TangoTango]

I treat all li-ion batteries in the cabin (including Apple products) as worthy of consideration before flight. Fortunately, most battery fires I've seen were predictable well in advance - batteries swelling until the case bulges, obvious damage (as the case posted above), extreme heat when charging, etc. If you don't bring the predictable fire hazard on board you probably won't have to deal with its inevitable conflagration.

[Jackk]

We carried this in aircraft where a fire would

be very bad and a emergency landing would be in the ocean, some very impressive products, check out the videos of the firebane liquid 

 

https://www.spectrumfx.net/product/corporate-flight-package

 

[Hank]

Our Mooney doors only open ~2" in flight, you won't toss burning electronics out of it. And finding and opening a bag to carefully drop that flaming thing in will be very difficult to do in flight.

Check your tablet and see if it will fit out the storm window. My Galaxy Tablet fits (I set it on the panel during preflight / loading through the storm window). That will make a quick, easy open and toss motion, not requiring fumbling around for a bag or leaning across and pushing hard on the door.

[Scottknoll]

For what it’s worth, we do carry those PED bags at work. But most of us are not optimistic about picking up a flaming object and getting it into the bag. The firebane is impressive stuff. Also, the training we’ve received from Aircare (Link below) suggested not using a fire extinguisher. The flames will just keep coming back, so the suggestion was to pour water on it. The water cools the cells below the temperature required to allow the heat to propagate to nearby cells. At least that’s the theory.


https://www.aircareinternational.com/pilot-training-programs?_gl=1*119cke7*_up*MQ..*_gs*MQ..&gbraid=0AAAAApIJMo_2SiiAKMBhA7-ktql0xC1KN

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, Scottknoll said:

The flames will just keep coming back, so the suggestion was to pour water on it. The water cools the cells below the temperature required to allow the heat to propagate to nearby cells. At least that’s the theory.

Yeah, I've heard that, as well.  Based on nothing more than my own unsubstantiated opinion, I don't think this is going to work well in a small aircraft cabin.  I suspect that the amount of water to get the cells below their ignition temperature is going to be substantial (i.e. that 16 oz bottle of Fiji Water ain't going to cut it!), especially as I have trouble visualizing how you're going to apply said water to the optimal locations while flying the plane!  There is already going to be smoke and I suspect adding water will generate a substantial amount of steam which is quickly going to turn the cabin solid IMC

[IvanP]

I recall that lithium tends to react with water quite violently and thus water should probably not be used in an attempt to extinguish buring Li-ion battery. Given the close quarters of our cabins and the violent nature of such fire, my take on this particular risk is that prevention is of the utmost importance. For those of us who fly with supplemental oxygen the risk of catastrophic outcome of electrical fire in cabin is even higher. I am havuing hard time imagining a successful in-flight mitigation of LI-ion battery fire in Mooney cabin, especially if it occurs when the pilot is the only occupant of the plane. 

My battery safety approach - DO NOT drop battery or device. If dropped and/or damaged - immediately remove from service and replace, avoid devices that have known issues wth overheating, inspect batteries and devices for any signs of damage prior to each flight, avoid charging in flight if possible or use low charge rate power supply to avoid excess heating if in-flight cahrging is absolutely necessary.  

I use Garmin Aera 760 which has about 6+ hrs of battery life when fully charged so I do not connect it to the plane's power at all. The unit is always in a protective case until mounted to its cockpit holder to avod accidental damage. I-phone is in my pocket and not charged during flight.  

[Scottknoll]

I figured instead of guessing, I’d go look up what the FAA says. Here’s the FAA AC on inflight fires. I was wrong about the extinguisher. Sounds like the extinguisher is to remove the flames so they don’t catch anything else on fire. Then liquid to cool the device.
Here’s an FAA training video on the subject. Warning, if you watch this, you might go back to paper charts! lol

[Will.iam]

Our company policy is to put the electronic device in fire bag with water. Ipads now stop charging when they get to a certain temperature and to slow charge the last 20% this is to prevent the batteries from overheating which then starts the chain reaction that leads to a fire. Putting the device in a fire bag with water is so important we are not allowed any devices in cargo areas that are not accessible to a person to be able to put the device in a bag. Nor can you have multiple devices next to each other so as to prevent multiple devices from catching on fire. Having said that i have only known of the Samsung phones that have caught on fire or a damaged apple device which should not have been on the plane in the first place. As mentioned before don’t carry damaged devices or cheap devices. Samsung learned their lesson and the newer phones have safety stop for charging when the device gets too hot. Don’t leave your ipad in the sun etc. heat=opportunity for device to to go critical and catch fire and once it does it’s like a flare and very hard to put out. 

[McMooney]

throw it out the window ?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

throw it out the window ?

A phone might fit, but I don't think a tablet would.

[buddy]

15 hours ago, hazek said:

Has this scenario ever happened so far that is known?

My iPad that was approximately 7 years old exploded while being charged. Luckily I placed it on my granite countertop in the kitchen before plugging it in and went to bed so no damage to countertop or kitchen cabinets but woke up to the smell of something burning.