Wild ride takeoff roll and landing roll

[mpilot]

Hello. New owner of old Mooney, '66 M20F. Flies great, love how quick it goes with the fuel burn, and how stable it is at cruise. One thing, though, that scared the crap out of me on this F model, is the SUPER sensitive, and seemingly slightly delayed (like the lag of a modern turbo car, push gas, wait, go!) response to rudder inputs. We went down the runway as though performing a slalom test.

This was surprising to both me (green, and more than surprising) and my (veteran, multi-thousand-hour professional) co-pilot. Same thing once landing presented itself

My takeaway is that a couple things could exist at once. 

*sensitive to rudder command at takeoff roll speed

*perhaps takeoff trim to nose down placing more burden on steering than should be in respect to rudder

*nose gear tracking limits need assessment. 

*fill in the ________.

As I settle a list of things to iron out, this one is high on the list, and any input from the community about similar scenarios and resolutions would be great!

Thanks in advance! 

[mpilot]

Also, should mention the cursory inspection of nose gear was unremarkable. Will be heading out to clean and inspect thoroughly with light and mirrors. 

[Andy95W]

https://web.archive.org/web/20190207032823/http://donmaxwell.com/the-eight-second-ride-sb-m20-202/

[PT20J]

SBM20-202.pdf

[Mooneymite]

7 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190207032823/http://donmaxwell.com/the-eight-second-ride-sb-m20-202/

After I installed a new nose gear part, taxiing out I immediately knew there was "something wrong".  The nose wheel steering was super sensitive.  I taxied back to my hangar, called Lasar and got the spacer.  Once installed, everything returned to normal.  I have pictures of the spacer with dimensions, but can't find them.  It is, essentially just a slice of pipe.

 

[Ragsf15e]

23 minutes ago, mpilot said:

Hello. New owner of old Mooney, '66 M20F. Flies great, love how quick it goes with the fuel burn, and how stable it is at cruise. One thing, though, that scared the crap out of me on this F model, is the SUPER sensitive, and seemingly slightly delayed (like the lag of a modern turbo car, push gas, wait, go!) response to rudder inputs. We went down the runway as though performing a slalom test.

This was surprising to both me (green, and more than surprising) and my (veteran, multi-thousand-hour professional) co-pilot. Same thing once landing presented itself

My takeaway is that a couple things could exist at once. 

*sensitive to rudder command at takeoff roll speed

*perhaps takeoff trim to nose down placing more burden on steering than should be in respect to rudder

*nose gear tracking limits need assessment. 

*fill in the ________.

As I settle a list of things to iron out, this one is high on the list, and any input from the community about similar scenarios and resolutions would be great!

Thanks in advance! 

It could be the “8” ride” issue addressed by the SB posted above, or it’s simply slop in the nosegear steering.  You need to jack it up, lay under the nosegear and wiggle the nose tire to see what’s causing that slop.  If you don’t jack it up, it’s much harder to find.

This problem is common and fixable.  

[mpilot]

Thank you all. That bulletin I've looked over quite a lot. I referenced this article too, https://knr-inc.com/shoptalk-articles.html?view=article&id=165:202406-nosewheel-tracking-for-mooneys&catid=63:shoptalk-articles

I will buy some jacks to inspect, and look for a spacer if out of limits. Would be great to not lack confidence on rollout.

 

M

[Marc_B]

I'll add that if the nose gear shock discs were recently replaced, that the increase in stack height WILL change the geometry of the nose wheel.  So it's not always just a switch and go.  Additionally the collar at the top of the pucks has an asymmetric bolt hole in some Mooneys.  Meaning you can either flip the collar so that the bolt hole is low or high...this can adjust the geometry somewhat, but others will need the shim which is just a thin washer.

But speaking from experience, the difference in even slight geometry is surprising in terms of "twitchiness" of the nose wheel at speed.  I didn't feel it was uncontrollable, but rather SUPER sensitive.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, mpilot said:

Thank you all. That bulletin I've looked over quite a lot. I referenced this article too, https://knr-inc.com/shoptalk-articles.html?view=article&id=165:202406-nosewheel-tracking-for-mooneys&catid=63:shoptalk-articles

I will buy some jacks to inspect, and look for a spacer if out of limits. Would be great to not lack confidence on rollout.

 

M

There’s all kinds of bolts, bushings and heim joints in the nosegear mechanism that can wear and cause slop. You need to wiggle it and see where it’s occurring.

[mpilot]

Well, finding this 20-203-3 spacer with the current LASAR nuance seems challenging. Anybody have any other leads on this?

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, mpilot said:

Well, finding this 20-203-3 spacer with the current LASAR nuance seems challenging. Anybody have any other leads on this?

Honestly, there’s enough different things under there that can wear and cause this. I wouldn’t look at parts until you figure out which one it is. I always tried to buy the parts first too, but now I have a big bag of parts that I haven’t used.

[mpilot]

I plan to measure this week. Will report back. 

[Cfidave]

I had the shim installed last week. Made a big difference. I bought it from Lasar, by going to the service bulletin page on there website. You an also just google “ Lasar service bulletin kits”.

[Cfidave]

Probably the most expensive washer you will buy:

https://lasar.com/service-bulletin-kits/service-bulletin-kit-tracking-spacer-m20-202-001

[EricJ]

Service bulletin M20-202 has a drawing of the nosegear puck spacer and the material.   It's basically a small slice of 1.25" OD steel tubing.   Aircraft Spruce sells a 1-foot chunk of the exact pipe for $9.50, and anybody can cut a whole bunch of those spacers from it.

[mpilot]

As I've looked closer, the rubber discs are 10 yrs old, so I think it prudent to have them replaced in total and then address the tracking limits once new discs installed. I'll rent the tool (I have it on a browser at the house if member still rents it out) get new discs all around and hopefully have a more confidence-inspiring fast taxi situation.

Thanks all for your input, and I'll report back with outcomes. 

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, mpilot said:

As I've looked closer, the rubber discs are 10 yrs old, so I think it prudent to have them replaced in total and then address the tracking limits once new discs installed. I'll rent the tool (I have it on a browser at the house if member still rents it out) get new discs all around and hopefully have a more confidence-inspiring fast taxi situation.

Thanks all for your input, and I'll report back with outcomes. 

JMHO, but I'd place odds that you will still have the problem; old shock discs won't cause the tracking problem.  While replacing the discs you should take the opportunity to check all the bushings and washers for wear and replace as necessary.  Otherwise, you're going to be pulling things apart, again!

[Matthew P]

On 10/20/2025 at 6:58 AM, mpilot said:

Well, finding this 20-203-3 spacer with the current LASAR nuance seems challenging. Anybody have any other leads on this?

Contact Don Maxwell

 

[Cfidave]

Did you click on this?

 

https://lasar.com/service-bulletin-kits/service-bulletin-kit-tracking-spacer-m20-202-001

[Cfidave]

14 hours ago, MikeOH said:

JMHO, but I'd place odds that you will still have the problem; old shock discs won't cause the tracking problem.  While replacing the discs you should take the opportunity to check all the bushings and washers for wear and replace as necessary.  Otherwise, you're going to be pulling things apart, again!

As the article states, this spacer will fix a " dart to the left". Old pucks won't cause that to the extent a bad nose wheel alignment will.  Before I installed the spacer my plane would head left in a hurry after landing, the higher the speed the more it would dart left. The spacer fixed that issue and my nosewheel pucks are older then yours.

[skykrawler]

It could be the nose steering on takeoff is more sensitive than what you are used to.   The pressure and movements are small.  It more like leaning on it rather than steering.

You get the same affect on many airplanes if you are two aggressive with nosewheel steering.   Clumsy feet can make a King Air dart around.

 

[Kelpro999]

On 10/18/2025 at 12:48 PM, mpilot said:

Will be heading out to clean and inspect thoroughly with light and mirrors

These bolts left and right should be checked through the exhaust cavities. Being loose adds to excessive rudder pedal looseness. Tightening them will test your tool modifying ability. 

[PT20J]

Lost motion due to wear in the steering linkages will make precise steering more difficult because it introduces a dead zone between left and right pedal inputs. This is most noticeable at taxi speeds. Failure to track straight at higher speeds is a caster angle issue and that’s what the service bulletin addresses. 

[mpilot]

Knowing the age of the pucks, and that I want to get in and fiddle, I'll replace them on principle. I'll deepndove on the linkages and ensure tightness and slip are appropriate. 

Regarding where the issue lies, we shall see, but it taxis at taxi speed very well, it is just once you're around 50 on runway, eg close to rotate and upon landing, where it soils the shorts .. So does fit the service bulletin idea. In the end, it will all be looked at. 

 

If you look at the bottom puck, on your lower left there's a tear. Also, from date stamp, it seems quite old (older than I thought, 04, as I was looking at part number stamp on top disc not the date stamp on bottom). It's seemingly time for a refresh. 

[Hank]

@mpilot, there should be a full date of manufacture molded into the pucks, MM/YY. Mine were upside down, I thought they were "09/96" but when I replaced them at annual in 2012, rightside up they correctly read "06/69" which is period correct for original pucks when my C model was built in 1970.

There were no issues with steering or control, but boy do the new ones feel better taxiing around, and my landings aren't as abrupt anymore.