Mooney Aircraft Accident Nampa, ID

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

It’s richer than most; especially for a lycoming. But not at all too rich. Yet in climb i would still recommend leaning to 1350 as long as your CHTs were fine; a little richer if not.


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My sea level EGTs are high 1100s to low 1200s depending on the conditions. Though they have trended upward as the servo has aged. When I last had it overhauled (15ish years ago), I asked the overhauler to set it as rich as possible within spec; this yielded EGTs just under 1200 on all but one cylinder. All cylinders @ 250°-275° ROP at full rich.  I wouldn’t change anything about how it’s set up.

[DCarlton]

11 hours ago, kortopates said:

Yeah everyone has bitched about the installation but better to bitch about it after and stay alive if your engine decides to give up the ghost at an inopportune time leading to an off airport landing. And trust me, you won't like we'll be saying about you if you don't get this done before you need it: "He was such a smart pilot; except for dragging his feet for so many years....and then had to rely on luck rather than his superior ADM....but it wasn't his lucky day (( 

I hit the steering wheel hard in an F150 while wearing lap and shoulder belts.  I purchased a set of aftermarket inertial belts for a 73 Camaro that never worked well even after the manufacturer replaced them.  Then I read about the Mooney shoulder belt installation issues; on the surface it sounds like a poor design.  None of that motivated me.  If I order them I’ll probably go with the simple fixed version.  

[DCarlton]

On 8/1/2025 at 12:01 PM, MikeOH said:

^^^ THIS ^^^

A few years back during "fire season" here in southern California*, the visibility due to smoke haze was really poor in the northern areas of LA (San Fernando and Simi Valleys) and I was on my way to Camarillo (CMA) when visibility got really sucky...like it was getting where I knew I would only be able to see straight down!  I was on FF and merely asked SoCal for an IFR clearance as visibility was getting poor.  They immediately came back with a clearance direct to CMA...I already had a squawk and was talking to them. Easy peasy.

 

*Only two seasons in southern California: Fire and Flood

Flew from CMA back to CRQ today IFR and couldn’t see well at all laterally with the inland smog layer at 4-5K.  Very hard to see any traffic at the same altitude.  A very weird hot day at altitude; maybe a temperature inversion.  

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Flew from CMA back to CRQ today IFR and couldn’t see well at all laterally with the inland smog layer at 4-5K.  Very hard to see any traffic at the same altitude.  A very weird hot day at altitude; maybe a temperature inversion.  

I've had that happen occasionally when the inversion marine layer drifts higher; normally it isn't that high.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

I hit the steering wheel hard in an F150 while wearing lap and shoulder belts.  I purchased a set of aftermarket inertial belts for a 73 Camaro that never worked well even after the manufacturer replaced them.  Then I read about the Mooney shoulder belt installation issues; on the surface it sounds like a poor design.  None of that motivated me.  If I order them I’ll probably go with the simple fixed version.  

That's how I became a believer in shoulder harnesses!  When I was 22 I was in an accident in my 1970 Chevy Nova which had separate shoulder harnesses that I left stowed!  I was only wearing the lap belt and I broke my nose on the steering wheel! If I'd been wearing the shoulder belt I would have walked away without a scratch.

It's not really a poor design.  That is, you are not going to find a 'better' way to do this.  The only solid structure to serve as an anchor point is the tube frame.  I can't imagine drilling through the tube to insert a bolt would not RUIN the integrity of the frame.  Putting a clamp around the tube is the logical solution.  It's the tight skin to tube clearance that causes the difficulty.

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, MikeOH said:

The only solid structure to serve as an anchor point is the tube frame.

I wonder if the later airplanes have some sort of bracket welded into the tubing?

[Jackk]

12 hours ago, Echo said:

Disagree. Very easily loosed and tightened. Easy to release shoulder strap to swap tanks and reattach. Literally one second. Less expensive. When snug it’s snug. 

 Problem is I only have two arms

 

 on takeoff and landing one is on the stick, other will be working flaps, gear etc.

 

 factor most energy transfer events are on take off and landing 

 

 

 think there is also a reason all new aircraft and all of the jets/airliners/etc have reels

[Shadrach]

The most practical set-up in the Mooney cabin inertia reel for pilot and fixed for copilot. A reel on the copilot’s side inhibits ingress an egress for rear passengers.

[Andy95W]

12 hours ago, DCarlton said:

If I order them I’ll probably go with the simple fixed version.  

If you have a Johnson bar, the inertial reel and push button is definitely better than fixed shoulder harness and flip-type latch.  If you have electric gear (like my first M20C) I preferred the fixed.

Installation really isn’t that bad.  No worse than removing the lower cowling of our vintage airplanes.  Not fun, but not bad.

[bonal]

First of all I want to express my sadness for the people that lost their lives and their loved ones.  As always the gallery is searching for answers and we are now discussing EGT’s and seat belt designs.  Please correct me if I’m incorrect but doesn’t the 1984 J come with shoulder harness as standard equipment.  
God bless 

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

First of all I want to express my sadness for the people that lost their lives and their loved ones.  As always the gallery is searching for answers and we are now discussing EGT’s and seat belt designs.  Please correct me if I’m incorrect but doesn’t the 1984 J come with shoulder harness as standard equipment.  
God bless 

You are absolutely correct,

[hazek]

I wish I could have four point modern seatbelts in my plane. Even the 3 point seat belts that I have feel inadequate.

[EricJ]

55 minutes ago, hazek said:

I wish I could have four point modern seatbelts in my plane. Even the 3 point seat belts that I have feel inadequate.

Three points are better at preventing submarining than four-points, and also allow a lot more freedom of movement, which can be important dealing with avionics, etc.

[bradp]

On 8/2/2025 at 4:45 PM, Mooney in Oz said:

From the Garmin EIS in my J, the highest cylinder (no 4) EGT on takeoff indicates 1250F at full power and full rich. Is that set too rich or am I overthinking it?

I get 18.3 gph on a SL TO run and note 1280 for my normal TO EGT.  It’s just my particular airframe.  I use 1280 as a leaning target during climb.  My richest peaks at about 1475.  You’re not far off from me.  

[bradp]

One other potential in this accident is flap setting. The J will climb out takeoff flaps or no flaps, but on a hot day it will be a dog of a climber if gear down and flaps are full. I scared myself once early in aircraft ownership when doing a (planned) go around at a 3100 airport at 1000 ft elevation on a 90+ degree day, half tanks, 2 people.  Flaps got stuck full down (we tracked it down to the down-limit switch) and the plane would barely climb out.   Still wouldn’t climb well, clearly felt on the back side of the power curve.  Sped up and the air load unjammed the over limited flaps and then climbed out normally.  Since then my config for IAPs or a planned go around is half flaps to minimize config changes in flaps and trim during climb out.  

This accident also highlights the importance of a pre departure briefing. In 15 years of flatlander J ownership, I haven’t encountered many sets of common conditions where I’ve exceeded about 1300 ft ground roll.  I use a standard of 20% beyond the calculated ground roll. So my departure briefing is this, out loud: “If not off by XX hundred feet, I’ll call stop and we’ll notify ATC and taxi off the runway.  Once airborne, we are committed to forward flight.  No turn back until 800 feet AGL.”  Experience can tell you whether your aircraft is performing as expected. I think tragically, this pilot lacked the experience to know something was not right until well into the accident sequence. 
 

Third point - someone posted a nice ForeFlight takeoff calculation. Make sure to include a safety performance factor greater than one.  

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

One other potential in this accident is flap setting. The J will climb out takeoff flaps or no flaps, but on a hot day it will be a dog of a climber if gear down and flaps are full. I scared myself once early in aircraft ownership when doing a (planned) go around at a 3100 airport at 1000 ft elevation on a 90+ degree day, half tanks, 2 people.  Flaps got stuck full down (we tracked it down to the down-limit switch) and the plane would barely climb out.   Still wouldn’t climb well, clearly felt on the back side of the power curve.  Sped up and the air load unjammed the over limited flaps and then climbed out normally.  Since then my config for IAPs or a planned go around is half flaps to minimize config changes in flaps and trim during climb out.  

This accident also highlights the importance of a pre departure briefing. In 15 years of flatlander J ownership, I haven’t encountered many sets of common conditions where I’ve exceeded about 1300 ft ground roll.  I use a standard of 20% beyond the calculated ground roll. So my departure briefing is this, out loud: “If not off by XX hundred feet, I’ll call stop and we’ll notify ATC and taxi off the runway.  Once airborne, we are committed to forward flight.  No turn back until 800 feet AGL.”  Experience can tell you whether your aircraft is performing as expected. I think tragically, this pilot lacked the experience to know something was not right until well into the accident sequence. 
 

Third point - someone posted a nice ForeFlight takeoff calculation. Make sure to include a safety performance factor greater than one.  

I’ve tested this in my F. It climbs just fine with full flaps and the gear hanging out, but if you expect it to do so at 100kts, you’re kidding yourself. One needs to climb at a much steeper angle and slower speed.  

[Echo]

VFR 8500' today.

[DCarlton]

On 8/3/2025 at 9:26 AM, bonal said:

First of all I want to express my sadness for the people that lost their lives and their loved ones.  As always the gallery is searching for answers and we are now discussing EGT’s and seat belt designs.  Please correct me if I’m incorrect but doesn’t the 1984 J come with shoulder harness as standard equipment.  
God bless 

I could see where that could be offensive to some.  People process these accidents differently.  I was saddened with the loss of a young wife and child to the point of giving up flying.  The thought of killing a passenger in my airplane is almost enough to induce me to stop flying.  There have been too many of these publicized accidents lately.  I'll probably cancel the aviation safety forum I follow on Facebook; I've seen enough crumpled airplanes.  After considering all of this, I concluded that the best thing we can do, if we plan to continue flying, is to have an all hands on deck safety stand down; or in the case of Mooneyspace, a safety discussion.  I say bring it on and bring it on in this thread.  The more we can learn from each other and these incidents, the better.  If I were to become a statistic, I would hope some pilot far younger than me would learn from my mistakes.  

[Pinecone]

On 8/1/2025 at 2:45 PM, MikeOH said:

1) The passenger side one interferes with ingress/egress, especially for rear passengers. Sure, I guess you could just install inertia on the pilot's side.

2) I like the secure hold that I get on take off and landing when I 'cinch' the shoulder strap tight.  It's part of my checklist.  In flight I find it much more comfortable after being loosened than the inertia ones; very easy to slip it off to reach the tank, or for comfort.

YMMV

*CBs like myself also like the cost savings

I agree with #1.  I am thinking about going back to fixed on passenger side.

The problem with #2 is, if something goes wrong can you really say you will not forget to put it back on or tighten it up?  And if it is loose, it is worthless.

[Pinecone]

20 hours ago, EricJ said:

Three points are better at preventing submarining than four-points, and also allow a lot more freedom of movement, which can be important dealing with avionics, etc.

Exactly.  You want 3 points or 5 or more.

Although Schroth of Germany makes a 4 points that is anti submarine.  One of the two shoulder straps gets longer in a crash situation, causing the torso to twist and prevent it from going under the lap belt.  I have thing installed in 2 BMWs for autocross/track use.  Interestingly, my 2002 M3 came from the factory with the rear mounts for the shoulder straps already installed.

[Pinecone]

On 8/3/2025 at 12:26 PM, bonal said:

First of all I want to express my sadness for the people that lost their lives and their loved ones.  As always the gallery is searching for answers and we are now discussing EGT’s and seat belt designs.  Please correct me if I’m incorrect but doesn’t the 1984 J come with shoulder harness as standard equipment.  
God bless 

Welcome to the internet.  Just like conversations in person, the conversation wanders.  In this case, due thinking about ways to prevent the same thing from happening.

[DCarlton]

On 8/2/2025 at 8:29 PM, Shadrach said:

My sea level EGTs are high 1100s to low 1200s depending on the conditions. Though they have trended upward as the servo has aged. When I last had it overhauled (15ish years ago), I asked the overhauler to set it as rich as possible within spec; this yielded EGTs just under 1200 on all but one cylinder. All cylinders @ 250°-275° ROP at full rich.  I wouldn’t change anything about how it’s set up.

Now I'm scratching my head.  If there can be significant EGT variations across different airplanes at sea level, how do you know your engine is making full power?  Do you base it on RPMs?  If you are taking off at redline, you are making full power?  I'm thinking full power for one engine set up might not be full power for another engine setup...  still scratching. 

[Pinecone]

On 8/1/2025 at 4:28 PM, kortopates said:

https://alphaaviation.com/upgrade-by-minor-change/

I used to be able to find the link to the actual shoulder belt kit for the M20 they sell but could not this time. it’s hard to fit the bracket on but it does fit - hundreds of these have been installed.
If you have a J bar the push button release is better way to go too.

1)  Even if you have factory installed shoulder harnesses, you may want to take a look and see how old they are.  In my 1986 M20K, the tags said they were made in ....... 1986.  And you could sea fading from UV on the webbing.   REPLACE OLD BELTS.

These guys will reweb your seatbelts.   And interestingly, they found a couple of missed ADs relating to seatbelts that had never been done. https://aircraftseatbelts.com/

2)  Even without a J bar, I have managed to release my seatbelt doing the trim manually.

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Now I'm scratching my head.  If there can be significant EGT variations across different airplanes at sea level, how do you know your engine is making full power?  Do you base it on RPMs?  If you are taking off at redline, you are making full power?  I'm thinking full power for one engine set up might not be full power for another engine setup...  still scratching. 

Difference in power between 200° and 300° ROP is minuscule.

[EricJ]

47 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Exactly.  You want 3 points or 5 or more.

Although Schroth of Germany makes a 4 points that is anti submarine.  One of the two shoulder straps gets longer in a crash situation, causing the torso to twist and prevent it from going under the lap belt.  I have thing installed in 2 BMWs for autocross/track use.  Interestingly, my 2002 M3 came from the factory with the rear mounts for the shoulder straps already installed.

I had Schroth ASM belts in a couple of track cars over the years.   They're a good option when a cage, proper seat, and full harness aren't practical.   I don't think there's an equivalent in aviation, which is not surprising since the application is significantly different.