Marc_B Posted July 11 Report Posted July 11 I read the email that was in this thread and it sounded like Lasar potentially has the ability to source orders at wide and be the single point of contact for Mooney. Then instead of many MSCs placing orders for smaller parts numbers to Mooney and just having small orders held until it meets a threshold, Lasar will collectively take these orders and just order a batch from Mooney (or third party on behalf of Mooney) to fill the orders and shelf any overage. The email just struck me as logistics outsourcing and seemed like a positive thing. If Lasar knows that a min order is 50, they'd be able to tell you a better estimate of when this order might be fulfilled. And if it's a part that sees movement, then they might be in a position to order a min before that min is met. Mooney wasn't financially in a position to do that. Additionally since Lasar already has a public internet storefront, they now have the collective ordering power from MSCs, from local shops looking for parts, and from Mooney owners directly. I've ordered parts from Lasar and have spoke with Dan several times; he's always been super helpful and informative. 1 Quote
bonal Posted July 11 Report Posted July 11 11 hours ago, kortopates said: Dan didn’t move to Oregon but stayed and is working out of his home, so parts are still being managed in CA while their service shop is in OR. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yes I’m based @1o2 and knew that Dan hadn’t moved to OR but wasn’t sure if he was still managing parts. Good to know since he has extensive knowledge. Was a real bummer when they packed up and moved. Having done several owner assisted annuals there I became quite familiar with where all the parts were located I would just grab the needed parts and let Dan know to add it to my bill. Lake Aero was the reason I ended up getting a Mooney. 1 Quote
1980Mooney Posted July 11 Report Posted July 11 (edited) 22 hours ago, Schllc said: .... I was shopping for my first plane I happened upon the Rockwell commander. There were a lot of intriguing things about that airframe that made me look hard. Then the internet showered me with doom and gloom about all of the planes being grounded any day now. The factory has been closed a LOT longer than 15 years, and there were a lot less of them made than mooney’s, yet they are still flying.. Im not trying to spin this into great news, I’m just saying that while the means of the end is pretty clear, the date it truly occurs is much less identifiable, and I don’t see it happening in my flying days an beyond so I’m pretty positive about all of this. hopefully I’m right! 21 hours ago, GeeBee said: Yes, the Commander Aircraft Corporation does a good job of supporting the fleet. .... I expect Mooney to go the same way, only I think better because of a larger fleet size. Yes Commander 112/114 support survives as Commander Aircraft Corp. (CAC). But they have had a very troubled and precarious existence that in many ways is similar to Mooney but with a couple big differences. Commander Aircraft Corp (CAC) produced the 114 and 114TC until 2002 when they filed bankruptcy and ceased production. Three years later in 2005, in a bankruptcy auction, a group of 50 owners named Commander Premier Aircraft Corporation (CPAC) paid $1.7 million for the FAA type certificates, as well as all jigs, tooling and other manufacturing assets. They had aspirations of restarting production in addition to support of the fleet. They moved the assets from the Oklahoma plant and to Cape Girardeau, Missouri where the City stupidly provided incentives. Things did not go well. They never got needed funding and were in debt to creditors. In 2009 they sold to a Montreal based owner named Aero-Base Inc. Creditors had to agree to discounts to get the deal done much like a voluntary bankruptcy reorganization. By 2011, the new owner of CPAC could not get needed financing and Commander Premier Aircraft Corp filed for bankruptcy and ceased operations. Three years later in 2014, the assets of CPAC were sold in a bankruptcy auction to a Chinese national, Ms. Borui Mao, for only $650,000. The new company was named Commander Aircraft Corp (CAC) again. The assets were moved from Missouri to Norman, OK into 2 leased hangars. In 2019 CAC announced that they would invest $8 million in a new manufacturing facility to build new 115/115TC. Nothing ever became of it. I don't think that the 115/115TC was ever approved. CAC continues to sell parts and provide services. The last Commander was built in 2002 by the original CAC. HOME | commanderaircraft Compare this to Mooney: Mooney Int'l is still a corporation with the balance sheet financial liabilities and the off balance sheet liabilities of past aircraft and aircraft part production (18 years going back to everything made since 2007). The so called "new owners", U.S. Financial LLC,, only bought 80% of the company. 20% is still owned by Meijing Group. It is not apparent that the new owners invested any capital into the company. It is more likely that they were looking to get rich with a quick paper flip of the company but are now stuck like a tar baby (remember the Power Point they were using to shop the company?) The main difference between Commander and with the current Mooney situation is that Commander was sold as a "sale of assets" in bankruptcy not once but twice. There were no liabilities assumed by the new buyer(s). (i.e. it was a liquidation of the company twice). Mooney was last reorganized in bankruptcy during 2001-2004. Now we have the following situation LASAR has some unclear deal to manage?/fund inventory?/ take-over? parts fulfillment for Mooney. LASAR's parts guru, Dan Riesland, is located in California and not at LASAR's Oregon home base. Mooney's tech guru, Frank Crawford, who seems to be the glue holding Kerrville support together is in Kerrville With the change, headcount (and hence knowhow), in Kerrville will continue to shrink Don Maxwell posted on Facebook that the Mooney Int'l financials in Kerrville cannot be supported by part sales alone. Three (3) years after the LASAR ownership change and move from California to Oregan, LASAR is still trying (struggling?) to get its PMA's and STC's approved and to market Brett Stokes highlights this in a July 2, 2025 Facebook post He also highlights and promotes that LASAR provides service and support for "Cessna, Beechcraft, Piper and more" - so LASAR's focus is not just Mooney. The Vintage Mooney section is full of posts of how many times LASAR has been called and emailed asking to provide 40:1 gears with no movement. LASAR may be well intentioned, but costs and logistics may overwhelm them quickly - perhaps they already are. From the comments/posts there seems to be a feeling by owners that LASAR will do more to order in quantity and keep larger inventories. That takes capital which no-one (especially the "new owners" US Financial LLC and not even the MSC's which could stock parts as they used to do) seems to be interested in or able to do. So we think (hope) that LASAR has deep pockets? Perhaps the best way forward is for Mooney to be forced into bankruptcy. IThat will be painful and destructive to owners in the short term but could clear the way for the assets to be sold for pennies on the dollar to someone that will just focus on parts manufacturing and supply (and not any dreams of new models, weight increases, landing gear mods or anything). It would get rid of the Chinese and would get rid of US Financial. It would free the IP up for the new owner/supplier with no liabilities. Edited July 11 by 1980Mooney 7 4 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 14 Report Posted July 14 Here’s a real world casualty because of this switch. I had a part on order through Top Gun with a six month lead time. It’s a duct for the intake on a 252. Top gun just emailed me and said the order went through Moomey three months ago and went to the vendor. It’s still on order from the vendor and its supposed to be at Mooney in three months. However, Mooney will not take orders from anyone else except for laser, so my order was canceled. I have an email in to laser see if they can get me that same part since I already ordered it but my hopes of seeing it in 3 months are much lower now… 2 Quote
Marc_B Posted July 14 Report Posted July 14 @Ragsf15e email Frank Crawford and see if he can attach your order to maintain position in queue. Seems like if it was on order it may be still in process. 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 14 Report Posted July 14 5 minutes ago, Marc_B said: @Ragsf15e email Frank Crawford and see if he can attached your order to maintain position in queue. Seems like if it was on order it may be still in process. Done. We’ll see if that helps. Lasar emailed me back saying they don’t order that part (which is what they originally told me and why I used Top Gun). Lasar is confusing it with the intake ducts for vintage models. I assured them it’s a valid part and they should put my order back to mooney. We’ll see how it goes, but this doesn’t bode well… 1 Quote
Hank Posted July 14 Report Posted July 14 2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: Lasar emailed me back saying they don’t order that part With the new parts structure, this should bother all Mooney owners! 1 Quote
Schllc Posted July 14 Report Posted July 14 9 minutes ago, Hank said: With the new parts structure, this should bother all Mooney owners! That is probably an accurate sentiment, but what is the alternative? Quote
MikeOH Posted July 14 Report Posted July 14 4 minutes ago, Schllc said: That is probably an accurate sentiment, but what is the alternative? Likely, owner produced is where more and more Mooney parts are headed, I'm afraid. It's going to further restrict the number of Mooney owners as many will have neither the skills to produce nor the will to manage OPP. 2 Quote
IvanP Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 Mooney service before: Factory price $, add MSC markup $ -- Owner pays $$ Mooney setrvice after: Factory price $, add LASAR markup $, add MSC Markup $ -- Owner pays $$$ 1 1 Quote
donkaye, MCFI Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 4 hours ago, IvanP said: Mooney service before: Factory price $, add MSC markup $ -- Owner pays $$ Mooney setrvice after: Factory price $, add LASAR markup $, add MSC Markup $ -- Owner pays $$$ That's what, Mark, from Top Gun says. He is also very disappointed in Mooney. He found out about the Lasar deal the same as us, on Mooneyspace. They tried to go on the Mooney portal to order some parts and couldn't get in. Expect parts prices to increase accordingly with probable decreased service. 1 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 16 hours ago, IvanP said: Mooney service before: Factory price $, add MSC markup $ -- Owner pays $$ Mooney setrvice after: Factory price $, add LASAR markup $, add MSC Markup $ -- Owner pays $$$ It seems like Lasar and Mooney have agreed that my order three months ago is still with Mooneys vendor and will be delivered in September. We’ll see. However, I ordered the part through Top Gun and they charged $760. Lasar wants $1015. So you guys were clearly correct about the pricing. 2 Quote
Paul Thomas Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 12 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: It seems like Lasar and Mooney have agreed that my order three months ago is still with Mooneys vendor and will be delivered in September. We’ll see. However, I ordered the part through Top Gun and they charged $760. Lasar wants $1015. So you guys were clearly correct about the pricing. Ouch! That's you getting it direct. That same part if now ordered by your mechanics would be close to double the original price. Quote
IvanP Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 I wonder what Paul and Sherry Lowen think about what is happening to their lagacy. 1 Quote
Marc_B Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 The big question is if this will keep more parts on the shelf or not. If parts more frequently in stock and on the shelf, ordered and sent the same day, it might balance an increased cost. If everything is a one off order and much higher cost, then that's not good. 2 Quote
IvanP Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 17 minutes ago, Marc_B said: The big question is if this will keep more parts on the shelf or not. If parts more frequently in stock and on the shelf, ordered and sent the same day, it might balance an increased cost. If everything is a one off order and much higher cost, then that's not good. I doubt that this change will increase availability of parts. I ordered some parts from LASAR before and they came drop ship directly from Mooney factory in Kerville. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 1 hour ago, Marc_B said: The big question is if this will keep more parts on the shelf or not. If parts more frequently in stock and on the shelf, ordered and sent the same day, it might balance an increased cost. If everything is a one off order and much higher cost, then that's not good. I agree. Even if we end up with “Textron pricing” like the Cessna and Beech folks, at least there’s parts available. I think this pricing is a change both at Mooney and with Lasar. I was going to pay the new price anyway since I need the part, but I told them the original price was $760 through top gun and I had ordered and paid at that price three months ago. Laser told me they would actually lose money at that price as Mooney‘s price went up as well. Maybe I should be mad that Mooney changed its price in the middle of my order? In the end, laser gave me $100 off what they quoted me, so at least that’s something. Quote
1980Mooney Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 2 hours ago, IvanP said: I wonder what Paul and Sherry Lowen think about what is happening to their lagacy. It is no different than anyone selling any owned business, a partner selling out of a partnership they founded (or maybe even has their name on it) or a group of majority shareholders agreeing to a takeover. You no longer control. You no longer have a say. It is out of your hands. You take the money, walk away and don't look back. Quote
1980Mooney Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 (edited) 19 hours ago, IvanP said: Mooney service before: Factory price $, add MSC markup $ -- Owner pays $$ Mooney setrvice after: Factory price $, add LASAR markup $, add MSC Markup $ -- Owner pays $$$ 18 hours ago, donkaye, MCFI said: That's what, Mark, from Top Gun says. He is also very disappointed in Mooney. He found out about the Lasar deal the same as us, on Mooneyspace. They tried to go on the Mooney portal to order some parts and couldn't get in. Expect parts prices to increase accordingly with probable decreased service. 2 hours ago, IvanP said: I doubt that this change will increase availability of parts. I ordered some parts from LASAR before and they came drop ship directly from Mooney factory in Kerville. 44 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Even if we end up with “Textron pricing” like the Cessna and Beech folks, at least there’s parts available... I think this pricing is a change both at Mooney and with Lasar. ..I told them the original price was $760 through top gun and I had ordered and paid at that price three months ago. Laser told me they would actually lose money at that price as Mooney‘s price went up as well. Maybe I should be mad that Mooney changed its price in the middle of my order? In the end, laser gave me $100 off what they quoted me, so at least that’s something. Everything will seek an equilibrium. As Don Maxwell posted on Facebook, Mooney International can't financially survive on parts making/sales alone. So Mooney's costs have to go down or prices have to go up....or BOTH. I expect Mooney's prices from the factory to continue to go up. The middlemen will also extract price increases to pay for the cost of capital (i.e. the "cash" which Mooney did not have) to place orders (with up front cash costs) and for the cost of stocking/holding inventory. Low margin/limited demand parts will be discontinued or priced so high no-one will buy any (same outcome). Higher new parts prices and culling of low margin/ limited demand parts will make salvaging used parts from downed Mooney's more lucrative. (i.e. used/salvage parts prices will go up). Cost to repair Mooney's will go up. Insurance companies will be quicker to scrap accident/incident Mooney's. Mooney's will be scrapped at a higher rate. Cost of ownership will go up. Fleet will shrink. The market will achieve equilibrium..... Edited July 15 by 1980Mooney 2 Quote
IvanP Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 22 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: Cost of ownership will go up. Fleet will shrink. The market will achieve equilibrium..... Sadly, the equilibrium that we are looking at will probably mean that many Mooney pilots will give up their planes as continuous ownership and maintenance will become cost prohibitive. Unfortunately, this trend is not limited to Mooneys as we can see from the general market situation with aircraft parts. Quote
MikeOH Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 1 hour ago, IvanP said: Sadly, the equilibrium that we are looking at will probably mean that many Mooney pilots will give up their planes as continuous ownership and maintenance will become cost prohibitive. Unfortunately, this trend is not limited to Mooneys as we can see from the general market situation with aircraft parts. ^^^ THIS ^^^ Most unfortunate, but likely very true. Quote
Paul Thomas Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 Let's not freak out... how often are you all ordering from the factory? @201er is it time for a poll? 1 Quote
MikeOH Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 3 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said: Let's not freak out... how often are you all ordering from the factory? @201er is it time for a poll? I think that comment misses the point: At some time in the future most of us owners WILL need to procure a factory part. For example, two years ago I needed the intake boot for my F; there are no substitutes. I was lucky Top Gun had ONE left. Had they not had one, I would have been in a bad situation. Let's just say this latest 'development' is NOT an improvement to the already difficult landscape for factory parts. 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 7 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said: Let's not freak out... how often are you all ordering from the factory? @201er is it time for a poll? Its the one-off parts that aren’t easy to make that worry me. Intake ducts are a good example. Mine is for a 252 and it’s a weird shape and different material than the vintage ones which are also difficult to get. Gear motors (or gears) might be another example. 3 Quote
MikeOH Posted July 15 Report Posted July 15 6 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Its the one-off parts that aren’t easy to make that worry me. Intake ducts are a good example. Mine is for a 252 and it’s a weird shape and different material than the vintage ones which are also difficult to get. Gear motors (or gears) might be another example. ^^^ EXACTLY ^^^ Quote
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