Logbook Page Removed and not Disclosed - Criminal Misrepresentation?

[LBM]

23 hours ago, M20GforMe said:

…

What they said on the engine was they were changing valve cover gaskets and found the rocker arms were damaging themselves on the valves. They could not get any valve clearance, so they took out the standard length push rods, put the shortest push rods in, and still couldnt get the 0.028" - 0.080" clearance they needed. Based on their observations, they think the case halves have been milled down past allowable tolerance. and at the minimum the engine would need a new crank case. The compressions on the engine were all really good on past annuals and on this one, but then this came up. Theres about 800 hours on the O360-A1D.

The next question is if anyone has had recent experience with IRAN/Rebuild shops with more "palatable" lead times. The A&P normally uses Poplar Grove Airmotive, but theyre still waiting on an engine they sent them back in January, so I'd expect at least 6 months from them. Option B is exchanging the core for a rebuilt engine I suppose, but that also seems like an expensive proposition. I'm going to start calling around and see what an IRAN costs at a minimum. I have no experience here admittedly, but is it fair to assume that if I am already going down the road of an IRAN and case replacement I may be better off just overhauling/exchanging the engine? Last overhaul was 2007. Compressions at last annual were 72/80, 74/80, 72/80, 75/80.

 

 

 

 

As others have pointed out, if the engine was so screwed up that replacing the pushrods that were in it with much shorter pushrods was still out of spec I’d wonder how it was even running.  Or at least how it was running well enough to take delivery and fly it for a year before finding this.  This is one I’d definitely want to hear what Savvy has to say about.  Also makes me wonder about the missing logbook page (or pages?).  More on those in a moment.

I have some knowledge of engine shop lead times, unfortunately.  When the engine in my E model (IO-360-A1A) ate a valve in February I made the decision to overhaul it, due to other factors in my specific situation (found misleading logbook entries about TSMOH).  I asked around for recommendations, called three well recommended shops for estimates.   Penn Yan was highest and slowest, over $50k with 22 week lead time estimated.  The other two shops were Columbia (Bloomsbury PA) and Signature Engines (Cincinnati);  both quoted $42k and were within couple of hundred dollars of the same total, and both estimate 10 to 12 weeks.

I chose Signature Engines, and shipped the engine to the last week of March.  They received it and performed the incoming inspection.  I received the inspection report with NDT findings on May 9.  Among other items, crankshaft was red tagged (crack in flange), and crankcase was found to have fretting, bearing lock damage, and required updating for “new standards for O-rings and oil relief passages” and was being sent out to be refurbished.  Last week I learned the shop doing that work was now quoting four month turnarounds.

So I am now three months in to what I originally hoped would be a three to four month overhaul, with current estimates having another three months to go.  Ugh.

Enough of my woes, back to your situation.  It sounds like you have the kind of mess Mike Busch advertises he helps with, so I’d definitely be reaching out to Savvy for their read on it.  I’d see what they think of the situation with your engine, and the missing logbook pages.  Depending on that, especially what you find with the engine, I might also be seeking legal counsel and considering action for recovery from the seller and perhaps the shop that signed off on that last annual.  Not having a prebuy undermines your position, but you might be able to negotiate some compensation from them in lieu of taking them to court.

Good luck!

[N201MKTurbo]

Here is the procedure for checking the dry valve clearance while replacing a cylinder. It is what needs to be done in your case.

c. Removal of Hydraulic Tappet Sockets and Plunger Assemblies – It will be necessary to remove and bleed the hydraulic tappet plunger assembly so that dry tappet clearance can be checked when the cylinder assembly is reinstalled. This is accomplished in the following manner: (1) Remove the hydraulic tappet push rod socket by inserting the forefinger into the concave end of the socket and withdrawing. If the socket cannot be removed in this manner, it may be removed by grasping the edge of the socket with a pair of needle nose pliers. However, care must be exercised to avoid scratching the socket. (2) To remove the hydraulic tappet plunger assembly, use the special Lycoming service tool. In the event the tool is not available, the hydraulic tappet plunger assembly may be removed by a hook in the end of a short piece of lockwire, inserting the wire so that the hook engages the spring of the plunger assembly. Draw the plunger assembly out of the tappet body by gently pulling the wire.

 CAUTION NEVER USE A MAGNET TO REMOVE HYDRAULIC PLUNGER ASSEMBLIES FROM THE CRANKCASE. THIS CAN CAUSE THE CHECK BALL TO REMAIN OFF ITS SEAT, RENDERING THE UNIT INOPERATIVE 

[Utah20Gflyer]

The parts manual for our G model Mooneys show the Prestolite ALY-8403 as being the alternator originally installed.  
 

Hartzell says the current part number they are selling for our plane is ALX-8521

A standard alternator looks like this which is quite different than what you have installed.  
 

Im feeling pretty confident the alternator installed is not the right manufacturer.  It looks as though the other companies like plane power are selling the same prestolite alternator under their own label, so unless there is a STC I haven’t come across then  that doesn’t look like a proper alternator.  
 

Whoever put that 90 dollar rebuilt alternator in your plane should be nominated for king of the cheap bastards (also known as CBs on the forum).   

[Schllc]

with regard to the "car alternator"  i have owned probably 50 vehicles in the last 40 years, and i have replaced three alternators.  i have had 11 planes in the last 10 years and have replaced four alternators.

i think the car ones may be more reliable!!!

[DCarlton]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

The discrepancy list shows that they did a very thorough inspection which is a good thing. Not all of this needs to be fixed immediately, however, to legally and safely return the airplane to service. I would work with the shop to prioritize.

I haven't studied this thread but the list struck me as a list you would prepare if you wanted to completely tear down and restore the airplane.  Twenty years of ownership and my plane is in the best shape it's ever been in; but it's taken me 20 years to get there and I still have some corrosion I'd like to address (landing gear for example).  Two steps back and three steps forward every year if you're lucky.  Little by little it gets better.  You've definitely gotta prioritize smartly if you want to fly it; or just go ahead and make it a restoration project (if you've got deep enough pockets and lots of time).  

[DCarlton]

On 6/18/2025 at 1:40 PM, M20GforMe said:

What’s going to stink is being $125k into a plane worth $80k at the end of this, and also not having a plane for 6 more months. But I’ll appreciate having a plane I can trust with my life when I do finally get to fly it

If you keep it long enough, this will happen several times during your ownership.  And it will stink every time.  You've just gotta fly it off.  The more hours you fly and don't rent, the less it hurts.  

[PT20J]

Many years ago when contemplating my first airplane purchase, a pilot/owner friend told me that the best part of owning an airplane is that the flying is free. When queried, he explained that the insurance, hangar, inspections and maintenance were so costly that the gas and oil to actually fly it was lost in the noise. 

However, having the key in your pocket - priceless. 

[Z W]

I'm not too sure about the engine issues. I'd listen to those here. Probably the same about relocating / adding a data plate.

For everything else, be glad you have found a thorough shop that took the time to document everything wrong with your plane and offer to fix it. Don't be a CB. Fix what's wrong. If you're short on dollars and/or mechanically inclined, you can try to fix some of it yourself, limited by what's legal, but get it fixed.

You don't have an $85k plane. You have a plane that would cost well over $1m to replace if new today, that takes $10-30k per year to maintain in a truly airworthy state. This year you got a $30k year. It hurts, but I've had some of those and the pain of paying the bill is outweighed by the satisfaction of having a clean, safe, and reliable machine, at least in my experience. I flew mine today and it felt great. Bonus points if you build a relationship with a local shop you can trust that will fix your next problem because you paid them to fix all these.

[cliffy]

As far as the data plate-

Back when the requirement to have the data plate mounted on the rear of the fuselage came about they allowed that numerous aircraft had them mounted elsewhere (Cessna 140 inside the windshield on top of the panel for instance).

The ruling came down that those without a manufacturers data plate on the tail could just pop rivet a hand stamped aluminum strip on the tail with the name of the airplane and it serial number -

M20C-xxxx  Look around at older airplanes and you will see that that is what they did back then so just have your A&P get some  .032 aluminum about 3/8 inch tall and 2 inches long and use metal hand stamps to input the correct numbers and pop rivet it on the tail. That will satisfy the regulation. 

I might add that the alternator definitely does not meet TC or STC requirements. You need to find in the log books where/when that was put on and what it replaced and find the original installation be it factory or STC.  

[OR75]

since you did not do a pre-buy , many wear and tear items are on you (like corrosion , tired tires , worn brake disks and pads, .... )

but maybe the seller should make it right on the alternator and give you your money back on the alternator ?

[M20GforMe]

I went to the shop today and I took some videos of the A&P explaining their process and logic, so that they are not lost in translation. 

What happened was there was a bent push rod housing, they replaced it, removed the rocker, saw the rocker valve side face had wear in it, and thats where this snowballed from

I broke it down into three short videos

Video 1: (2 minutes) Breakdown of how he came upon the issue and what they found. Damage to rocker valve side face shown

 

Video 2: (38 seconds) Explains the bleeding process they did for the hydraulic lifters. They share that the rocker arm is wearing itself into a clearance. (Can anyone verify if this process sounds like it was done correctly?)

 

Video 3: (2 Minutes) Explains the measurements they took that made them believe the crank case has been machined past acceptable tolerances. (I'm not convinced the measurements they did were the most accurate since it looks like theyre measuring from a score line, but maybe someone can glance at the housing and see if it looks milled down beyond normal).

PS - we did look at another engine, but it had more washers on the crank case bolts, so the "counting threads" approach was debunked

Feedback is appreciated! They're waiting for me to give me the next steps as of the moment

Edited June 22, 2025 by M20GforMe
Corrections

[M20GforMe]

Here is a photo of some of the original rockers that were pulled from the engine, you can see the surface that sits on the valve shows wear which is part of what started all of this

[N201MKTurbo]

Why are all the push rod tubes back on the engine? If he removed the plungers and cleaned them, he would need to remove them all. It seems silly to put them all back in if you were still fitting push rods.

Plus, the theory that if the clearance was too small it will wear the rockers is crazy. If they are too tight, the valves will not close and you will lose compression and maybe burn valves. It won’t hurt the rockers. The normal operation of the lifters is to have zero valve lash. 
 

I think there is a better case for a failed plunger that wasn’t taking up the valve lash and hammering the rockers.

 

Then there is the bent push rod tube. I have only seen that when a valve gets stuck, and it bends the pushrod.

He said that some of the rockers were warn where the shaft goes through. The bushings are replaceable. They only cost about $10 each. Yet he bought eight new $250 rockers.

[N201MKTurbo]

It would be good to know the part numbers of the pushrods in the engine.

[M20GforMe]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It would be good to know the part numbers of the pushrods in the engine.

Would there be a P/N identifier on the pushrods or would this come from the logs? (Or from a parts diagram?)

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, M20GforMe said:

Would there be a P/N identifier on the pushrods or would this come from the logs? (Or from a parts diagram?)

The part numbers are stamped in the side of the pushrods.

[N201MKTurbo]

And a can of Lycoming grey paint costs $15. If you are going to replace the pushrod tube, at least paint it to match.

[Aaviationist]

Based on the measurements he’s talking about, if done accurately, he’s correct. 
 

Still not sure how that engine ran that long like that, the bent rod tells a story though. How long was it like that?

[IvanP]

Sorry to hear that you are experiencing this, albeit it is not  unique experience for a new owner. I recall that my first annual after buying my first plane also had a five-figure price tag, but mostly because add-on stuff I wanted to have done and few issues that the seller disclosed prior to the sale (price adjusted accordingly). On my second plane, I brought my mechanic to the seller's place who graciously provided hangar space, tools and support personnel for us to do a pre-buy. found couple of minor issues, agreed on price adjustment, shook hands and flew the plane home.

As for your options in pursuing the seller and/or his mechanic, that would largely depend on the terms and conditions of the contract. If the seller made any form of representations about the state of the aircraft's airworthiness and/or maintenance and these representations were, in fact, false, then you could have a case and creative lawyer could use several theories to seek damages or rescission of the contract. Conversely, if the contract terms were "as-is/where-is" with no express or implied warranties, you are probably out of luck. 

I would be very concerned about the mechanic, though. His labor costs appear to be quite inflated and he may see you as an inexperienced pilot/owner representing a bag of easy money walking through the door. Seeking a second opinion from a mechanic with Mooney experience would seem to be a prudent course of action here.   

Edited June 20, 2025 by IvanP

[M20GforMe]

13 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The part numbers are stamped in the side of the pushrods.

A&P said part numbers from old pushrods were sl15f19957-35, part numbers from new pushrods he was replacing them with are sl15f19957-34

6 hours ago, Aaviationist said:

Based on the measurements he’s talking about, if done accurately, he’s correct. 
 

Still not sure how that engine ran that long like that, the bent rod tells a story though. How long was it like that?

I couldn't tell you, I bought the plane at the end of last year, and its only flown maybe 10 hours since I've had it. My CFI grounded it for a while in January because the nose gear door had some play to it (just needed new heim bearings), but the first A&P shop (Revv at 06C, on my field) took 3 weeks to tell me that they didnt have time to get to it, so then we took it to another shop (Travel Express) at Dupage who fixed that after a week or two.

When my CFI flew it back, he said it was running rough, so he flew it back to Dupage, and was going to have his buddy that is an A&P look at it. After 2 weeks in his hanger waiting for his buddy to look at it, his buddy said he didn't have time to take it on (or that it was a bigger project than he could fit in, rather), so my CFI taxi'd it back to Travel Express on the same field, and they found water in the carbeurator. (It was hangered when I bought it, and at my field, but it must have sat outside at travel express for a bit the first time around). They fixed it but that took 3 weeks, and said the engine ran great.

Then when I got it back, I checked the fuel tanks and they had water in them.  They fixed the water in the carb problem, but not the root cause, which made me decide to not do my annual with them. So then I "may or may not have" changed the seals on the gas caps myself (This isn't incriminating, is it?... I am a PPL student).

I was supposed to fly again with my CFI a week later, but when the day came, he said hes not comfortable flying the plane since I (a student) changed the fuel cap O-Rings myself (even though he was there watching me and talking to me when I did it...). So then it sat for another month as my CFI wouldn't fly it until the annual came around, which was April 30th. It's been at the shop since then. The silver lining in all this is that I did tell the A&P to check the gas caps during the annual, he said I did a good job at that at least.... 

It's been a tough 8 months of plane ownership... 

[N201MKTurbo]

You can see there are shorter pushrods. There is a -33. It isn't specified for that engine, but it will work.

SI1060U20Rods.pdf

[Old Chub]

As N201MK Turbo pointed out why are all the pushrod shrouds back in the engine if he is still working the valve lash issue?   I don't thing he as taken the lifters apart and got all the oil out to get his dry clearance.   On another issue if the case is over milled it will not accept the accessory case as each case half has a dowel pin that goes into the accessory case you just could not have gotten the accessory case back onto a case that has been over milled.   Do not let them split the case till you get another opinion with someone who has done some cylinder replacements an engine overhauls.  

Also there seems to be some confusion between a bend pushrod shroud and a bent pushrod.   

[Paul Thomas]

@M20GforMe Did you use to have another account? The gear doors and CFI thing seems familiar.

[M20GforMe]

39 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You can see there are shorter pushrods. There is a -33. It isn't specified for that engine, but it will work.

SI1060U20Rods.pdf 295.87 kB · 0 downloads

Would this be legal if it’s not specified for that engine?

If anybody knows an A&P in the area with good lycoming knowledge that can give a second opinion and can travel to Lewis university (KLOT), I’d be willing to pay their rate for a good second opinion. I called Poplar Grove Airmotive as they’re nearby, (My A&P had also been in touch with them to ask questions on this previously) but they said they are too backed up to have anyone travel off site.
 

The shop it’s at, Coletti, was very friendly about welcoming another A&P in for a second opinion

[M20GforMe]

44 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

@M20GforMe Did you use to have another account? The gear doors and CFI thing seems familiar.

When the log issue had come up, I thought it may be worse than it was, and didn’t want to tie the issue to my plane on the internet. At the same time though, I’m not looking to cut corners anywhere on ownership, so there’s not really anything to hide. I didn’t expect the traction that this post has gotten, but I’m very thankful for it.

I don’t think it’s productive to lose sleep on the log issue anymore, but I did call the engine shop that did the overhaul in 2007, Aero Services of Winchester, to see if they could tell me if they had any information on why the engine was overhauled (was not near TBO) so that I could have an idea of what led to the missing page right before the overhaul. The lady that answered was very nice, but she had me on speaker and somebody (I would imagine an owner) chimed in immediately when I mentioned the overhaul from 2007 and was pretty rude about me asking if they may have an old record. They won’t get a penny out of me ever, although Im fairly certain ownership has changed since the overhaul.
 

I called another shop or two like Bolduc (now Horizon) to get IRAN timelines and estimates if I had to go down that avenue and Kevin there was great, but they were out 6-8 months if I remember right. In case anyone else is looking, Poplar Grove here was out 8 months. Airmark Overhaul was by far the shortest of those I called at about 10-12 weeks.

Edited June 20, 2025 by M20GforMe
Clarity