Minimum prereq's 1) Mooney training; 2) Mooney Insurance

[qwerty1]

Hello,

 

Idea is Part 61 training after buying beater getting like 500ish hrs then having better informed specific opinion of long term (expensive) plane purchasing. Mooney looks right for a variety of reasons if I can get over the hump. About to take plunge into speaking with local hangars/CFIs/semilocal lawyers about structuring as business maybe to never rent but depreciate-sale well before overhaul so someone with more limited means can still do same themselves/take off me at markdown.

 

I anticipate they'll all be like flies except lawyers - worse not just all over me but pushing bias in line with their various interests. The thing is I'm getting answers all over the board without reaching personally on if I ought for a dozen reasons to take a generalist approach and step up from 150 to arrow (meaning buy both cheap and peel off 150 then keep piper for overhaul downtime and try to rent it to kids wanting complex in area since doing affordably semi rare), vs try to get into a Mooney even an older model asap.

 

So I'm going to put the two purest forms of questions to those in the know here in the know, and let you guys answer but also back off or expound on if there are other obvious things I'll run into if I don't take your advice on things I should think about!

1) How far can you push CFI vis-a-vis early Mooney hours? Can you in principal find someone who'll let you start hour 1 for a part 61 training regimen in an acclaim if you could find a CFI w/model background and the aircraft somehow? Are there reasons why you as trainee should not desire this even if you could? What about older/aspirated Mooneys etc? I've run into CFI's that purportedly won't even sign off on solo flying complex (even low performance i.e. arrow) until PPL in hand but that sounds like strict outliers at least...

2) I run into this idea that it isn't the rate but actual ability no matter how deep your pockets to actually *get* (any) insurance - which is apparently needed often for financing the purchase regardless of your status, which is confusing because you don't have to be a pilot to purchase an aircraft, but... - I've heard the ability to just procure insurance is a problem if you tried the above (including i.e. M20J or whatever). Hence the otherwise frustrating step-up purchases before actually getting into a Mooney

 

Thank you, everybody. Incidentally I can't afford an acclaim up front in case that was key to your advice

 

[201Steve]

I feel like you asked AI to write a long form question about Mooney airplanes in the form of a romantic novel.
 

I think the question  is, can you do primary training in a Mooney  -probably not.  They don’t have brakes on both sides.  
 

Suggest taking a discovery flight with a flight school before worrying about any of the subject matter presented. 

[McMooney]

just buy the plane you want now, save yourself the headache.  mooney, esp  c-j aren't esp more difficult to fly then a 172, arrow, archer whatever, plus you'll have all that time in the plane with a cfi right next to you.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Mooney insurance for a student pilot is sometimes attainable but more difficult to obtain in California.  I don't know where you are.

As a CFI and insurance agent, I don't recommend a Mooney for a student pilot.

Buy any Mooney you want right after getting your private pilot certificate.

[qwerty1]

6 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Mooney insurance for a student pilot is sometimes attainable but more difficult to obtain in California.  I don't know where you are.

As a CFI and insurance agent, I don't recommend a Mooney for a student pilot.

Buy any Mooney you want right after getting your private pilot certificate.

Nice - IDK how forum here works will PM you sir

[qwerty1]

11 minutes ago, McMooney said:

just buy the plane you want now, save yourself the headache.  mooney, esp  c-j aren't esp more difficult to fly then a 172, arrow, archer whatever, plus you'll have all that time in the plane with a cfi right next to you.

So I take it in principal from hr 1 is doable in your experience IN Mooney (all things including insurance considered)?

[Max Clark]

3 hours ago, qwerty1 said:

Hello,

Idea is Part 61 training after buying beater getting like 500ish hrs then having better informed specific opinion of long term (expensive) plane purchasing. Mooney looks right for a variety of reasons if I can get over the hump. About to take plunge into speaking with local hangars/CFIs/semilocal lawyers about structuring as business maybe to never rent but depreciate-sale well before overhaul so someone with more limited means can still do same themselves/take off me at markdown.

I anticipate they'll all be like flies except lawyers - worse not just all over me but pushing bias in line with their various interests. The thing is I'm getting answers all over the board without reaching personally on if I ought for a dozen reasons to take a generalist approach and step up from 150 to arrow (meaning buy both cheap and peel off 150 then keep piper for overhaul downtime and try to rent it to kids wanting complex in area since doing affordably semi rare), vs try to get into a Mooney even an older model asap.

So I'm going to put the two purest forms of questions to those in the know here in the know, and let you guys answer but also back off or expound on if there are other obvious things I'll run into if I don't take your advice on things I should think about!

1) How far can you push CFI vis-a-vis early Mooney hours? Can you in principal find someone who'll let you start hour 1 for a part 61 training regimen in an acclaim if you could find a CFI w/model background and the aircraft somehow? Are there reasons why you as trainee should not desire this even if you could? What about older/aspirated Mooneys etc? I've run into CFI's that purportedly won't even sign off on solo flying complex (even low performance i.e. arrow) until PPL in hand but that sounds like strict outliers at least...

2) I run into this idea that it isn't the rate but actual ability no matter how deep your pockets to actually *get* (any) insurance - which is apparently needed often for financing the purchase regardless of your status, which is confusing because you don't have to be a pilot to purchase an aircraft, but... - I've heard the ability to just procure insurance is a problem if you tried the above (including i.e. M20J or whatever). Hence the otherwise frustrating step-up purchases before actually getting into a Mooney

Thank you, everybody. Incidentally I can't afford an acclaim up front in case that was key to your advice

I'm really confused as to what you're already done, and what you're trying to accomplish?

For clarity, do you have any flight training logged?

I'm reading that you haven't yet started, but are looking at complex retract to purchase as a trainer for you to get your PPL in, but put into some sort of business entity to try and get a tax advantage, and maybe/probably not try to rent it out, and when you get 500 hours then go out and buy another plane.

If this tracks my feedback below, otherwise ignore:

Do not buy a Mooney to train in.

Do not buy a plane to start your training - start your training first, when you get past solo then start thinking about buying a plane.

Have > 100 hours before you think about buying something fast.

Decision making is a skill that you have to develop when flying. Staying away from unnecessary risk and situations that can kill you is a great place to start.

My $0.02 - take it or leave it.

 

[NickG]

I fell asleep after first paragraph. What exactly are you asking, and are you a person or a bot?

[hubcap]

Do not spend any money on aviation until you get a valid Medical certificate.

Do not train in a Mooney for your PPL.

Never buy a Mooney with the thought of renting it out. 

 

[A64Pilot]

Saw someone do all of his training and get his Private in a C-210, which in my opinion is “more” airplane to handle than a NA Mooney.

Guy wasn’t stupid apparently, quit flying before he killed himself and or his Wife. I figure something happened that scared him.

Neighbor has a story of a wealthy friend that bought one of the last Mooney’s to learn in, Acclaim I think, turbocharged, had long range tanks put in it to learn to fly because he could make his business trips in it, had to pay someone to go along apparently due to insurance. Got his PP, I guess got enough hours so he could go alone, quit after his second gear up, reportedly saying he had been thinking that if he was forgetting the gear, then likely he was forgetting other things too, that would end up killing him.

There is a time honored step program if you will that has you starting in a C-152, now 172, but gradually increasing in complexity and performance, getting your instrument etc., then graduating to a complex aircraft. It works. Look at WWII Military training, they started in Cubs, then moved to Stearman’s, then T-6’s, getting their instrument training somewhere along the way before their tactical aircraft, and we were in a hurry then, killing a few extra pilots was acceptable if it got them in theater quicker.

In my flight school I flew four different helicopters before transitioning into the AH-64

In my opinion the biggest reason the Bonanza got the moniker of Dr Killer wasn’t really the airplane, but that the Dr’s back in the day had the bucks to buy one as their first airplane after getting their PP, same I believe back a few years for the Cirrus. That big jump in complexity and speed killed them.

Sure some 16 yr olds Daddy’s buy them a ZR1 Corvette that don’t kill themselves, but many do. Most of course would never consider buying a kid a ZR-1 as their first car, but think a complex airplane is OK as a first airplane?

So sure some get a Mooney right after their PP and don’t hurt anyone or gear up, but many do, so many in fact that their insurance rates reflect their greater propensity to do so.

Insurance companies are experts in risk assessment, do whatever is necessary to keep your rates low and I promise you that you will be a safer pilot for doing so.

[dkkim73]

Good answers above and some fairly long threads on almost the same topic (might take a bit with keywords but you can probably find them). 

A few people here have done ab initio in a Mooney and thought it worked for them. They should be along shortly.  I think that would be the minority. Agree most are better-served by a stepwise approach for multiple reasons. 

"Gnothi seauton" as the old maxim goes, know thyself. I would further add that, if you have limited aviation experience, you might be very discerning in other respects but not really have a basis for evaluating your own ability to do this kind of approach. 

A practical thing I would add to the above posts is: If you are an airplane owner/buyer you will spend a lot of time doing things that are not making you a better pilot. And you might decrease your actual aircraft availability vs. finding a good rental situation. 

Spitballing out of the blue: 

- get some hours of training, ideally through the pre-solo stage, make sure you like it

- get a medical (required for the above)

Yes a 172 or PA-28 is different than the Mooneys but the knowledge and skills will dovetail nicely into a foundation. You *might* have this same conversation about instrument training, but even then it's not a clear choice IMHO as a human factors guy. I think it's certainly too early to think that any time in trainers would be "wasted".

As to cost-effectiveness, it could go either way. 

I'll leave the tax strategy to more knowledgeable people but if that's a determining factor for you, probably best to consult an appropriate planner early. 

HTH
D

 

[Schllc]

I’m one of the oddballs.  Bought an ovation 3 with around 13 hours TT, finished my ppl in that plane, as well as my IR. It took me about a year from purchase to completing my IR. 
Nothing wrong with starting in a Mooney. 
three caveats.
1.  It will be expensive to build hours bc it is fast, and will take more time to learn, and more time with an instructor.  
2.  First year will be high cost, finding an insurer to write the policy.  
3.  You will be forever biased against all things not Mooney. 
 

It is not the common route for a lot of good reasons, but I am not sorry for the route I took, and when I finished my IR I was very comfortable and competent in my plane. 
understand the risks, and go in with proper expectations and it will be fine. 
ignore them and it may be an expensive lesson. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I suspect this is a bot or a person who doesn’t speak English as a first language.  Really tough post to read.  
 

My advice….. Doing your PPL in a Mooney, any Mooney but especially a later turbo Mooney is a terrible idea.  You will have more than enough to deal with using a trainer and the extra complexity is going to make the learning process drag out much longer than it needs to. 
 

In fact I don’t think a person should even consider buying any plane until after their PPL.  Airplane ownership is a part time job and will take a lot of time away from training.  There is a high likelihood your training will take much longer than if you just rent. 
 

It’s very unlikely you will save any money owning versus renting.  You don’t buy a plane to pay less.  You buy a plane for control and access. 
 

Good luck! 

[Pinecone]

On 4/25/2025 at 9:38 PM, qwerty1 said:

So I take it in principal from hr 1 is doable in your experience IN Mooney (all things including insurance considered)?

Why wouldn't it be?  The USAF, at times, has taught people from zero hours in twin engine jets.  Although they found it worked better to start them in a GA piston aircraft for the first 15 hours and first solo.  The US Navy used a piston complex aircraft, based on the Beech Bonanza to start, later changing to a turbo prop version of the same airframe.

Just understand that doing it that way will probably take some extra hours.

BTW, not all Mooneys lack right side brakes.  Mine has them.

[Pinecone]

WRT to insurance, no matter what, you want liability coverage.  But, if you can afford to walk away from the airplane financially, you do not need hull insurance, unless you financed the airplane.

[SKI]

My addition to the conversation. I sold my Cherokee to a student pilot on my field late last year. He was through Solo and had about 20 hours. He had a landing mishap in January and now the plane is down for months being repaired. Some pilots are better than others student or not. I think flying a trainer type for a few hundred hours after your PPL is a really good idea. I'm absolutely glad I did it that way. There's PLENTY more to be learned boring holes in the sky at 110 Kts going to breakfast and taking short flights around home as your experience builds. As was said above insurance rates tell all you need to know.

[TangoTango]

I bought my Mooney shortly after getting my PPL. Insurance was expensive, but I've been told my options would've been much more limited had I still been a student. While mine also has right side brakes, I think renting until I got my PPL was the right choice. That's the first big bend point in insurance cost, and the transition to a complex takes a while. It would've set back my training at least a couple dozen hours, and I was happy to get the early hard landings out of the way in a fixed gear with oleo struts.

Everybody's risk tolerance is different, but I think waiting hundreds of hours post-PPL before transitioning to a complex Mooney is excessively conservative. After all, the FAA thinks you can fly around paying passengers with a commercial rating at 250 hours. Personally, if the intersection of your risk tolerance and mission profile meets somewhere you can afford, I like the mantra of "buy your second plane first". Transaction costs in airplanes are high. 

[Pinecone]

OTOH, flying a lot in typical trainers allows one to build in bad habits.  Like lack of airspeed control on final.  That leads to problems with faster aircraft.

I did my PP in a Grumman Tiger on a 2000 foot runway.  For some reason, I don't have a lot of trouble being on speed in my Mooney.

 

[76Srat]

The wager you're pondering, and evidently looking for affirmation here, is that you'd like to:

1.  Train for and obtain your PPL;

2.  You'd like to do so in as complex/high-performance plane as possible;

3.  You'd like to offset most, if not all expenses related to same.

Well, at the risk of sounding fatherly (sorry, I suppose I am), you can't have all of those delicious morsels of cake and eat them, too.  Here's why:  just like any decision worth contemplating, and aside from costs themselves, buying a plane is a negotiation of range, speed and payload (meaning if you want a plane that goes further, you're likely not going to be able to carry as much; if you want a plane that goes faster, you're likely not going to be able to go further; and if you want to farther, you won't be able to go faster).  This is why Mooneys are special in the marketplace (bias alert).  Plane ownership really is Goldilocks.  You can't sleep in all three beds or eat all three bowls of porridge at the same time--one will be "just right", for you.  For us here, Mooneys scratch all of those itches in very special ways.

Now, to focus on your idea to train for your PPL, congratulations.  I echo the vast majority opinion here to say do that at your favorite local flight school (61 or 141) and enjoy the process.  You'll be far more better off, as will the world of pilots, if you focus more on finding a CFI that you jive with and that jives with you instead of worrying about finding the right Mooney just for you to train in.  

Second, there are basic stick and rudder skills that you don't have until you have them.  Focus more on nailing those, as opposed to learning from the start just "how to be a good complex, high-performance pilot".  Stick and rudder, airspeed and airmanship are all vastly more important than becoming a competent pilot of high performance aircraft, which comes later  The "cart" here is your pilot skills; the "horse" is training to become one, not the other way around.  To paraphrase a prior post response:  You'd never dream of putting a 15 year old student driver behind the wheel of a Formula One car, or even a WEC Porsche GT3RS.  It just isn't smart.  Has that been done before?  Of course, but at last recollection, there aren't a lot of Sebastian Vettels or Max Verstappens out there (both piloted F1 cars to great success before they could legally drive on public roads in Europe; and each are now 4-time Drivers World Champions, but I digress).

Third, in your effort to offset expenses and make it bit more palatable to your pocketbook, why couldn't you do that with a proper C172 or other capable trainer aircraft?  The idea is a decent one, but you also need to understand how to manage that entire process and account for it.  The fact that your AI question-creator generated the question the way it did leads me to believe that you're not opposed to hiring someone to do that for you, which is the only way to ensure its done correctly (unless you possess more skill in that department than you've disclosed here).

Finally, you need to decide to pursue initial training properly, which likely will not coincide with your owning and training in a high performance, complex bird.  Most folks need to acquire alot more skills that are vastly more important to the goals you've established for yourself.  At the risk of being a fatalist, you will end up achieving a result, without question.  The real concern for you should be which result do you want to achieve? 

[Pinecone]

The biggest advantage to doing your training at a school is aircraft availability.

My local FBO has 6 C-172M aircraft.  If one is down for maintenance, you have your choice of 5 more.  

If you are training in your own plane, if it is down, you are not flying.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The biggest advantage to doing your training at a school is aircraft availability.

My local FBO has 6 C-172M aircraft.  If one is down for maintenance, you have your choice of 5 more.  

If you are training in your own plane, if it is down, you are not flying.

I cannot overemphasize this enough.

Especially when it comes to flight schools that have only one multi-engine aircraft.  That's an expensive section of training to have interrupted while the "twin is down again" for 90 days waiting on some on-demand part.

[Yetti]

Learn to land in something else than a mooney

mooney instruction might be hard to find in your area

 

 

[dkkim73]

21 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Learn to land in something else than a mooney

 

That makes a lot of sense. Besides wear-and-tear, I would also argue there is some value in having the skillset to land a lot of more conventional GA aircraft (e.g. several cessna's land similarly). The Mooney, with its secret aerodynamic profile (see the Al Mooney was 7 ft tall video) and superconducting wing, refuses to bleed energy anywhere near the ground. 

Ok, that's an exagerration, but it is a bit different in some ways. 

[KSMooniac]

I wonder how many like Schllc have successfully completed initial training in any Mooney.  It can be done, obviously, but it is a far riskier proposition IMO with lots of expensive downside.  Previous owner of my J bought it halfway through his initial training and managed to finish his PPL and get about halfway through the IR without bending anything.  (He moved into an Ovation next, and didn't bend it either finishing his IR.)  I don't imagine anyone keeps stats like this.

I know Maxwell has repaired a LOT of late model Ovations and Acclaims for prop strikes and gear-ups or worse with barely any time on them... I believe a lot of those pilots were new with recent wealth and decided to skip the smells-like-avgas-and-vomit rental fleet but many times that did not work out well.  Some of those planes have had multiple incidents too and then hit the market with 3xx hours TT and two new props or similar.  It sucks for the rest of us paying insurance, but then it also makes for de-valued used airplanes someone like me might be able to purchase in the future.   

I've mentioned it before over the years, but quality of instruction in a Mooney is critical vs. getting a 300 hr TT CFI at your local flight school.  Getting the right instructor would mitigate much of the risk of ab initio training in any Mooney, but not all.  I transitioned into Mooneys with about 150 TT in my college flying club, and at that time, we had a strict checkout policy that required 10 hrs dual in our M20F, and also mandated an informal checkride with a "senior Mooney CFI" in the club.  Our faculty advisor (and his wife) during my era were long-time Mooney owners and helped get the club established prior to my time.  Besides those two (multi-thousand hour pilots and CFII's)_there were 3 or 4 other senior instructors to backup the younger CFI's in the club.  It made for a great ecosystem for learning the nuances of flying a Mooney, and it served the club well.

A couple years after I left, they relaxed that checkout policy to 5 hours and no senior CFI checkout... and then they had a hull loss within a year and no more Mooney.  Maybe not related, but I suspect there is a little correlation.  

I'm still of the strong opinion that for most people, it is far better to learn at a flight school or flying club with multiple planes available to ensure steady availability and progress.  Crawl, walk, run.  

[mike_elliott]

While having done a lot of Mooney specific training, I have only done one primary instruction. It was with an 18-year-old in an Acclaim type S.

He never had an issue being behind the airplane, adapting to the complex management of the systems and had excellent adm skills

His name is Reece Gold. Last year, He was a driver in the Indy car NXT series this year. He’s off in Europe, running the LMP3 series.

Well, it can be done in a plane like the Mooney, but frankly insurance puts a stop for most to even attempt it. They look at the overall actuary tables versus the specific abilities of the individual and the training program. Of course they’re in business to make money not to pay out insurance claims so they want to mitigate any risk at all if they can. Our military trains, young men all the time and very high-performance aircraft