How Much Cross Wind to Run Out of Rudder?

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Seriously, though, with that set up did you slant your course across the runway? 

No. My CFI instructor would never permit that. I have done that in a Ercoupe, though.

[cliffy]

With all this talk of crosswinds and angles off the nose-

WHY NOT JUST PULL OUT THE OL' E6B AND GET AN ACCURATE FIGURE?  :-)

Oh I forgot it ain't digital  :-(

The early C model POH said 17 MPH.   I presume at 90 degrees to the flight path

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

WHY NOT JUST PULL OUT THE OL' E6B AND GET AN ACCURATE FIGURE?  :-)

Used to have a full-size one in my multi-clip lapdesk (think Rod Machado's early IFR book). I still have a small metal one tucked in my kneeboard to this day. When it comes time to really need it, you all will probably read about what happened in one venue or another. Hopefully firsthand in Mooneyspace.

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, Brandt said:

I’m just impressed at you working in a Triumph reference…

LOL. Chance favors the prepared mind? That's probably a bit too highbrow for this situation, though.

[cliffy]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Used to have a full-size one in my multi-clip lapdesk (think Rod Machado's early IFR book). I still have a small metal one tucked in my kneeboard to this day. When it comes time to really need it, you all will probably read about what happened in one venue or another. Hopefully firsthand in Mooneyspace.

I carry a CR3   the round one

[DXB]

2 hours ago, cliffy said:

With all this talk of crosswinds and angles off the nose-

WHY NOT JUST PULL OUT THE OL' E6B AND GET AN ACCURATE FIGURE?  :-)

Oh I forgot it ain't digital  :-(

The early C model POH said 17 MPH.   I presume at 90 degrees to the flight path

I'm not sure the M20C POHs have any info on demonstrated crosswind.  I can't find any in my '68 POH, or even the '74 POH that I keep on hand due to its more detailed performance charts.   That said, 17mph sounds about right - the Bob Kromer article linked below cites 15kt as as well within the envelope of the short body (page 7-8).  I also find experientially that crosswinds in that range put the rudder pedal near the floor, so I feel that I have adequate guidance for crosswind landings in my short rudder C.

 https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-AprTMF.pdf

What I would love to know more about is max crosswind takeoff limits - I think the plane can handle similar crosswinds for takeoff, but I have zero data to rely upon.   

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, cliffy said:

With all this talk of crosswinds and angles off the nose-

WHY NOT JUST PULL OUT THE OL' E6B AND GET AN ACCURATE FIGURE?  :-)

Oh I forgot it ain't digital  :-(

You would actually pull out an E6B to get a crosswind component number?  Sure, a number of the airplanes I fly have the wind components right on the PFD, but, personally, I don't think I've used anything other than this to get a good estimate of what to expect. (one small change) 

On 3/25/2025 at 7:39 AM, Hank said:

read somewhere one time a little thing to approximate the crosswind component:

• 30° off runway heading = 1/2 windspeed
• 45° off runway heading = 2/3  3/4 windspeed
• 60° off runway heading = windspeed

It seems strange to say, but considering we are talking about crosswinds and gust factors, both of which change pretty much all the way down from pattern to runway, even an E6B seems like measuring a football field with a micrometer.  Come to think of it, in the bumps common on a windy day, the rule of thumb is probably more accurate than the E6B  

[EricJ]

Croswwind/headwind components can be computed easily with any calculator with sin or cos functions.    I can do it on my phone.   

Nerd power.

 

[Hank]

@midlifeflyer, why do you use 45° = 3/4 of wind speed?

• sin 45 = cos 45 = 0.7017
• 2/3 = 0.6666 (= 0.04044 low)
• 3/4 = 0.75 (= 0.04289 high)

So we're both correct. I find it easier to approximate a third less, than to halve it twice and take that off the wind speed.

But whatever works for you. Guess I'm too muchnof an engineer to nit get out my calculator and figure thos out! 

[AJ88V]

Strongest I've done was in AZ up near the Grand Canyon.  Forgot the specifics, but plane (C) was fully loaded, wind was strong, direct 90* crosswind. Warning on approach from big smokestack near town had the smoke coming out at a sharp right angle to the stack.  High crab into the wind to the 7000 ft rwy, landed half flaps on the right wheel on the far right side of the ryw.  Did not use much length, but proceeded to skitter across the entire 150' width of the rwy and almost put her in the grass on the left side (ok, probably rock-strewn bare earth - wasn't inviting).

I absolutely do not recommend doing this and do not care to repeat it.

FWIW, I think you get most of the stall speed reduction from half flaps.  Full flaps gives you nothing but drag (witness climb out if you ever forget to set takeoff flaps).  No flaps gives too high a stall speed, so half flaps for me in these conditions.  YMMV

[cliffy]

@midlifeflyer        Did you see the smile emmi?

BTW IF one googles it you can find the  original hand typed C model POH (hand book) on line

In that it does state 17 mph as the crosswind limit. 

Now in real practice , a crosswind is only limited by your ability and risk factor analysis.

I've done a  40 steady direct 90 cross wind in big stuff but I wouldn't even attempt it in the Mooney. 

I've done 15 gust to 20 in a Cessna 140 but won't do it again also. 

As Dirty Harry preached from the pulpit of life- "A man's got to know his limitations! "   

[MB65E]

Nobody mentioned taking off??? Wow! 

I’ll land in a lot more than I’ll ever take off with. 

After 14y in a M20E, Scariest thing in a short body Mooney is decent left crosswind on takeoff.  Even as low as a 10k direct left crosswind will get your attention. You simply need more rudder or pull power out. 
Only DXB mentioned Takeoff. I think that’s more of an interesting data point as well. 
-Matt

Edited April 2 by MB65E

[midlifeflyer]

16 hours ago, Hank said:

midlifeflyer, why do you use 45° = 3/4 of wind speed

Mostly because it’s the most common way the rule of thumb is stated

Some justification for that since it’s on the high side so more conservative and is probably an easier mental calculation than 2/3.

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Mostly because it’s the most common way the rule of thumb is stated

Some justification for that since it’s on the high side so more conservative and is probably an easier mental calculation than 2/3.

I dunno. A third of 32 is almost 11, so two thirds is almost 22; I need a calculator to find 3/4 of 32. (Half is 16; half again is 8; 32 less eight is 24. While holding course, managing descent and talking to Tower on the radio in IMC. Too much for me.)

I'm firmly in the camp of "close enough," and find written test questions whose answers must be calculated to two decimal points to be silly wastes of time. What's the real difference between 22 knots crosswind component and 24 knots? Both are higher than the "demonstrated crosswind" in my Owners Manual, and the actual real value is 22.63 knots by my calculator for a 45° wind.

Besides, aren't we approximating wind angle anyway? Wind angle may be reported accurately on ASOS, but runway headings are in 10° increments. 

So i lump the wind into big categories and get close enough.

• Less than 20° = zero
• 20-40° = half 
• 40-60° = two thirds
• >60° = reported windspeed

Quick, easy, simple. No calculator needed, no decimal points to used, easily done in my head. And it eliminates the 5° variability in runway heading, too.

Half, two thirds, all works for me, and is easy to remember. 

And for lighter winds like 17 knots, unless it's close to direct cross, I don't bother figuring the components. If it IS close to direct cross, I just think the whole reported winds are crosswind.

[midlifeflyer]

16 minutes ago, Hank said:

I'm firmly in the camp of "close enough," 

When it comes to crosswinds, we have to be. The winds change and we have to fly the reality, not a calculation. My "correction" wasn't saying you were wrong, just that it's the most common way the rule of thumb is stated.

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, cliffy said:

With all this talk of crosswinds and angles off the nose-

WHY NOT JUST PULL OUT THE OL' E6B AND GET AN ACCURATE FIGURE?  :-)

Oh I forgot it ain't digital  :-(

The early C model POH said 17 MPH.   I presume at 90 degrees to the flight path

There are apps for cross winds.

And if you go to the Airport tab in ForeFlight, and select Runways for that airport, it will show you head/tail wind and crosswind for each runway based on the current METAR.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

I dunno. A third of 32 is almost 11, so two thirds is almost 22; I need a calculator to find 3/4 of 32. (Half is 16; half again is 8; 32 less eight is 24. While holding course, managing descent and talking to Tower on the radio in IMC. Too much for me.)

 

3/4 of 32

1/4 of 32 is 8.   3/4 is 3 times 1/4, so 3 x 8 = 24

 

Or 3 times 32 is about 100.  1/4 of 100 = 25.  Close enough.

Easy peasy

[Hank]

9 hours ago, MB65E said:

Nobody mentioned taking off??? Wow! 

I’ll land in a lot more than I’ll ever take off with. 

After 14y in a M20E, Scariest thing in a short body Mooney is decent left crosswind on takeoff.  Even as low as a 10k direct left crosswind will get your attention. You simply need more rudder or pull power out. 
Only DXB mentioned Takeoff. I think that’s more of an interesting data point as well. 
-Matt

It's much easier to decide the weather is unfriendly and not fly, than to decide the weather is unfriendly and not land.

Yes, we all check the forecast before departure, but you don't always get the forecast--you get what you get. I've not had winds blow up unexpectedly, but I've had forecasts of scattered cirrus @ 25K, unrestricted visibility at my destination turn out to be 400 Overcast, 2 miles in mist.

[EricJ]

My Avidyne has a page that shows relevant air data calculations, including headwind and crosswind component.   Many Garmin glass products (G5, G1000, etc.) will display computed wind components on the PFD, which is also nice.    A glance at those during final, even on short final when you're low, can be very useful to assess wind.  They're not high-precision computations, but they can be very useful.   There are airports around here that I visit reasonably often that have unreliable wx bots or no bots at all, so this can be very useful.

[dkkim73]

55 minutes ago, EricJ said:

A glance at those during final, even on short final when you're low, can be very useful to assess wind.  They're not high-precision computations, but they can be very useful. 

^this

G1000 has the same (selectable how it displays). There are commonly windshifts down low even on normal-ish days where I fly and this keeps you from mentally locking onto a forecast (or flaky local ASOS report) and being surprised or holding an inappropriate slip.  Also on instrument approaches it is very helpful to avoid suddenly getting slow on a coupled approach.

 

[cliffy]

9 hours ago, Pinecone said:

There are apps for cross winds.

And if you go to the Airport tab in ForeFlight, and select Runways for that airport, it will show you head/tail wind and crosswind for each runway based on the current METAR.

First you need Foreflight

Next Luddites don't use apps

Real pilots used to look at paper charts and look out the window to see what the airplane was doing  :-) :-) :-)

[Paul Thomas]

Landing on the upwind side of the runway is a poor strategy; I know it's regularly taught online and by inexperienced CFI. While I can see the logic as to the touchdown, it's a bad idea as to the rollout and taxi.

I've never had the wind push me toward the downwind side in a way that's dangerous - either give more aileron to land or go around. You are still safe and in control as long as you are flying. That will change once you touch down and slow down. What direction will the airplane turn toward if you lose control due to the wind being too strong? You will turn into the wing, toward the upwind side of the runway, the side on which you left no margin.

Being on the ground, with winds that are so strong that the airplane turns into the wind is a scary thing. I'm a strong proponent of landing on the centerline, every single time. The very experienced tailwheel guys will land on the downwind side and land toward the upwind side to cut down the X-wind component. Me? I don't want to be flying in those conditions and if I am, I'll divert to a runway that is more aligned with the wind.

 

[donkaye]

I've described safely landing in strong crosswind in the past (35-45 KTS) so I won't belabor the point other than to make a couple of comments: 1. High stall speed is good when it comes to crosswind landings because the airplane is done flying sooner with approach or no flaps.  2. Flying a higher speed approach = more rudder control.  3. Full flaps in gusty conditions is dangerous in my opinion because just when you think you are down and safe a good size gust could come along and ruin your day.  4. Variable approach speeds depending on wind strength is not a bad thing when needed to control stall speed with the use of flaps,  The critical thing to me is that the speed is adjusted such that the crab angle on final is less than about 15°.  Obviously, to successfully land in these types of conditions involves lots of practices working up to those conditions.  Give me a good windy day with a good crosswind and I'm out practicing.  See you there.

[Greg Ellis]

On 4/1/2025 at 12:40 PM, DXB said:

I'm not sure the M20C POHs have any info on demonstrated crosswind.  I can't find any in my '68 POH, or even the '74 POH that I keep on hand due to its more detailed performance charts.   That said, 17mph sounds about right - the Bob Kromer article linked below cites 15kt as as well within the envelope of the short body (page 7-8).  I also find experientially that crosswinds in that range put the rudder pedal near the floor, so I feel that I have adequate guidance for crosswind landings in my short rudder C.

 https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-AprTMF.pdf

What I would love to know more about is max crosswind takeoff limits - I think the plane can handle similar crosswinds for takeoff, but I have zero data to rely upon.   

I could not find it in the POH for my 63 C model but it is in the AFM on page 4 that is specific to my airplane.

"Landings when 90 degree crosswind component is more than 17 mph not recommended."

[Hank]

15 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

I could not find it in the POH for my 63 C model but it is in the AFM on page 4 that is specific to my airplane.

"Landings when 90 degree crosswind component is more than 17 mph not recommended."

The only appearance of "crosswind" in the Owners Manual for my 1970 C, on Page 1-3:

So I have to roll my own procedure(s) for crosswind landings.