New airplane.... what am I missing?????

[AJ88V]

Saw this on Trade-a-plane.  I'm in the market.  What's wrong with this plane?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20M+BRAVO&listing_id=2440024&s-type=aircraft

[Fritz1]

Nothing wrong at first glance, call the dealer and get the logs, you will find out why the price is that low

[DXB]

6 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

Saw this on Trade-a-plane.  I'm in the market.  What's wrong with this plane?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20M+BRAVO&listing_id=2440024&s-type=aircraft

Limited info here, but engine likely on its last legs - flown 25/hrs year on average since STOH 17 years ago. Also its 27 years SMOH, certainly should be priced as runout.  It's in annual but I wonder how long its been sitting recently

[Hank]

At first glance, avionics look old for this class of aircraft, but very similar to that's in my C.

Then there's 438 hours in the last 17 years, an average of 27 hours per year . . . How many years has it sat inflows? What shape is tank sealant in, and shock disks, and then engine hoses replaced 17 years ago, and gaskets and . . . .

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, DXB said:

Also its 27 years SMOH, certainly should be priced as runout.

Price an OH for this engine. Just make sure you are sitting down in something comfortable, and have someone around who can help you a when needed before looking at the total cost!

[DXB]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

Price an OH for this engine. Just make sure you are sitting down in something comfortable, and have someone around who can help you a when needed before looking at the total cost!

I just had my wimpy O-360-A1D overhauled by a major shop, still nursing my wounds from that.  A big bore 6 with a turbo might be a lethal blow.

[GeeBee]

Engine has 2494 hours. Needs O/H. That's what you are missing. Add minimum 100K for engine, more like 120K.

[IvanP]

18 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Engine has 2494 hours. Needs O/H. That's what you are missing. Add minimum 100K for engine, more like 120K.

Also add substantial wait time for OH on TIO540 engine. 

[Schllc]

I got overhaul quotes, including accessories from several shops for under 60.   From some well recommended shops I would add.. That’s assuming crank, case and cam are good. 
but all the “while you are there’s” will easily creep it to 120, then Avionics’s or interior could easily be another 100. 
However, or 320 you’d be in a pretty nice bravo. I do believe some of the early ones had lower UL, and assume that can be rectified with an stc, but the bravo guys can opine.  
320 for an early bravo would be the best if you had to sell, but if your going to fly for five-10 years it wouldn’t be money poorly spent. And it would likely be much easier to sell. 

[Aaviationist]

It was maintained minimally its entire life it looks like. 

[LANCECASPER]

14 hours ago, AJ88V said:

Saw this on Trade-a-plane.  I'm in the market.  What's wrong with this plane?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20M+BRAVO&listing_id=2440024&s-type=aircraft

In the ad they still call the engine a TIO-540-AF1A, which is the engine without the Bravo conversion (oil cooled cylinder heads). Since it's had a top overhaul you would hope that they did the Bravo conversion, but only the logbooks would tell the story.

In addition to everything that's been mentioned, the early M20M airplanes didn't have dual puck brakes and didn't have the Eaton gear actuator. The gear actuator alone is probably $15,000 to swap out with a used Eaton, if you can find one.

If you think about the major things: Powerplant (Engine/Prop); Airframe (budget for a gear actuator, tank reseal, gear pucks, dual puck brakes); Instrument Panel (35 years old); Interior(35 years old); Paint (35 years old), which boxes does it check? Really none. With that many things to bring it up to what people expect today, and if you compared it to other airplanes for sale that already have some of those things done, if you got the airplane for half of that it might not make sense. However if you bought it right, did the engine and flew it and were able to do some of the work yourself it could be a fun project. Ask me how I know . . lol? (At least mine had the good actuator and dual puck brakes)

 

[AJ88V]

 This has been very helpful.  Thanks!

 

 

[Jetpilot86]

Bravo owner here. It’s a project bird for sure. 37ish built looks like all OEM  Lot of unknowns in that engine especially.

Bid based on needing an OH, Prop, gear pucks, probably an O2 bottle to start. Believe it’s $100k for a factory, 80-90 for others, but they add for turbo OH. 
 

Mine sat up for almost 2 years waiting on parts from a gear up, and it was a solid year working out the kinks. This will be worse. 
Figure out what you are willing to add to get it like what you want, and see what compares that is more complete, costs. 
If you are not afraid of the project and get the hull cheap, assuming no prebuy gremlins, you will end up with a plane tailored to your specifications, but there will be lag time. 
 

Edit: probably left out tires too. 

Edited March 9 by Jetpilot86

[donkaye]

Realistic Price:

119,500 (Asking)+110,000(Engine+Installation (2 Year Wait))+3,000 (New O2 Tank)+12,000(New 4 Puck Brakes)+125,000 (New Avionics)=369,500

= Find a different Airplane

[exM20K]

9 hours ago, donkaye said:

Realistic Price:

119,500 (Asking)+110,000(Engine+Installation (2 Year Wait))+3,000 (New O2 Tank)+12,000(New 4 Puck Brakes)+125,000 (New Avionics)=369,500

= Find a different Airplane

So $250,000 plus time plus unknowns makes this a $250,000 airplanes?  If so, this one is, sadly, doomed to the scrapyard for parts.

-dan

[Fritz1]

eventually there is a selling price for everything, final piece of the puzzle may be a loan outstanding on the aircraft, once upon a time I was fixated on a particular aircraft, did the mother of all prepurchase inspections only to find out that there was a loan on the aircraft that exceeded by far what I was ready to pay for it ever, loan will show up in the title search, but not the amount, however, magically loans tend to gravitate around the asking price

[NickG]

I saw one similar to this last year. I believe this does not have the Bravo engine. And being an unmodified 1990 it will not have any useful load to speak of. Will also need Eaton actuator and dual pucks.
 

Run. Quickly.

[Jetpilot86]

Sounds like the offer should be “If I can get a ferry permit for it, I’ll give you $1”. 

Edited March 10 by Jetpilot86

[donkaye]

10 hours ago, exM20K said:

So $250,000 plus time plus unknowns makes this a $250,000 airplanes?  If so, this one is, sadly, doomed to the scrapyard for parts.

-dan

With the TIO540AF1A engine I'm not sure Lycoming would even give a core credit.

I look at that airplane and remember mine 30 years ago.  It's really sad to have to say that there exists a TLS (it is not a Bravo) that basically has no value as a usable airplane without inputting an unreasonable amount of money, but that is the case with this airplane in my opinion.   I wouldn't trust flying it in it's present condition at all.

Of course everyone knows that we all got our airplanes at a discount.  Right?  Most, if not all of them were sold at less than the cost to produce them.  It's not an accident that they aren't made anymore.  We are the lucky ones.

[Schllc]

Wouldn’t they have had to do the conversion in 1998 at the tear down, or when they topped it in 2008?  They said the Lycoming factory did the tear down. That may be an error in the brokers listing using the old engine model.  
Everything in aviation is a trade off. Even if someone were to choose to put the 400 it takes to restore this plane, they would end up with a nearly new plane, outfitted to that individuals tastes and specifications.  It comes with a premium for sure, but if you own  and fly it for ten years that premium is somewhat irrelevant. 
There are probably cheaper candidates out there, but there will be compromises with all of them, pick your poison….

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

Everything in aviation is a trade off. Even if someone were to choose to put the 400 it takes to restore this plane, they would end up with a nearly new plane, outfitted to that individuals tastes and specifications.  It comes with a premium for sure, but if you own  and fly it for ten years that premium is somewhat irrelevant. 
There are probably cheaper candidates out there, but there will be compromises with all of them, pick your poison….

Exactly.  But go in with your eyes open.

Maybe a low ball offer with why it is low would work.  

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

Wouldn’t they have had to do the conversion in 1998 at the tear down, or when they topped it in 2008?  They said the Lycoming factory did the tear down. That may be an error in the brokers listing using the old engine model.  
Everything in aviation is a trade off. Even if someone were to choose to put the 400 it takes to restore this plane, they would end up with a nearly new plane, outfitted to that individuals tastes and specifications.  It comes with a premium for sure, but if you own  and fly it for ten years that premium is somewhat irrelevant. 
There are probably cheaper candidates out there, but there will be compromises with all of them, pick your poison….

In the end who wants to wait nearly 2 years for an engine to fly their recently purchased airplane?

[Fritz1]

Like buying a core, new Bravo would be in excess of $1.2 M, effort to restore core somewhat comparable to resurrecting vintage racecar, people who have a running specimen are very fortunate

[Schllc]

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

In the end who wants to wait nearly 2 years for an engine to fly their recently purchased airplane?

Not many, for sure…

[goodyFAB]

On 3/9/2025 at 3:03 AM, donkaye said:

Realistic Price:

119,500 (Asking)+110,000(Engine+Installation (2 Year Wait))+3,000 (New O2 Tank)+12,000(New 4 Puck Brakes)+125,000 (New Avionics)=369,500

= Find a different Airplane

12k for an oxygen bottle?