MDW Runway Incursion

[201er]

If you’re gonna taxi across the runway in front of a landing 737, it better be at a confusing place like Midway.

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

Technology has to be created/implemented to prevent these potentially deadly mistakes.  

[201er]

18 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Technology has to be created/implemented to prevent these potentially deadly mistakes.  

They already came up with this for cars and it still doesn’t work.

”In 2022, more than 107,000 people were injured in red light running crashes.”

https://www.iihs.org/topics/red-light-running#:~:text=By the numbers,in red light running crashes.

[GeeBee]

I always hated taxing at MDW.

 

[flyboy0681]

So what happens to the Flexjet guy?

[MooneyMitch]

45 minutes ago, 201er said:

They already came up with this for cars and it still doesn’t work.

”In 2022, more than 107,000 people were injured in red light running crashes.”

https://www.iihs.org/topics/red-light-running#:~:text=By the numbers,in red light running crashes.

An opportunity to create a technology that does work!

[IvanP]

31 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

An opportunity to create a technology that does work!

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity" (Albert Einstein). Nanny-tech may be great as a concept, but it  can also create complacency and overreliance on such.  Technology alone is probably not the answer to prevention of human errors. Training and situational awareness are irreplaceable in aviation. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Technology has to be created/implemented to prevent these potentially deadly mistakes.  

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that there are no limits to stupidity."--Albert Einstein

"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."

[Hank]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

They already came up with this for cars and it still doesn’t work.

”In 2022, more than 107,000 people were injured in red light running crashes.”

https://www.iihs.org/topics/red-light-running#:~:text=By the numbers,in red light running crashes.

These have been outlawed in many places. Multiple studies showed that after installation, yellow light timers were reduced to artificially inflate the number of red light tickets issued, to say nothing of the high percentage of fees collected that went to the private companies operating the cameras instead of to the local governments. 

There is yet no technology developed to prevent vehicles from running a red light, nor to prevent an aircraft from incorrect taxiing. See my quotes above. Wish I could remember where I found the second one back when I worked in Division HQ writing work instructions and product specifications. 

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

So what happens to the Flexjet guy?

First things they need to file a NASA report. Next Flexjet needs to put them in the simulator, re-qualify them and put them on a 6 month re-qual with several line  checks in between. If all that is done, case will be closed with a letter of warning. The emphasis on the re-qual needs to be briefings, error trapping and cockpit discipline. Ditto that on the line checks

[C.J.]

2 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

An opportunity to create a technology that does work!

Runway Entrance & Stop Bar Lights currently exist & are all great, but they are no substitute for staying heads-up while taxiing and complying with a hold short clearance, confirming you're cleared across or just stopping if in doubt or utilizing the no-cost low-tech method of looking out the window left & right when crossing an active runway.

[GeeBee]

2 minutes ago, C.J. said:

Runway Entrance & Stop Bar Lights currently exist & are all great, but they are no substitute for staying heads-up while taxiing and complying with a hold short clearance, confirming you're cleared across or just stopping if in doubt or utilizing the no-cost low-tech method of looking out the window left & right when crossing an active runway.

One thing the FAA needs to require in all flight ops manuals is no running check lists while approaching or crossing a runway during taxi. It was the source in the AA incident at JFK and the SWA incident at DCA. I am willing to be it was going on here as well. 

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

There is yet no technology developed to prevent vehicles from running a red light, nor to prevent an aircraft from incorrect taxiing. See my quotes above. Wish I could remember where I found the second one back when I worked in Division HQ writing work instructions and product specifications. 

Our Tesla won’t at least with FSD engaged, I haven’t tried to run a light manually driving, I think it won’t, but haven’t tried. If a sign isn’t where it’s supposed to be it won’t recognize it though, for instance being a fly-in neighborhood our roads are taxiways, as such the stop signs are well off to the side and real close to the ground for wing clearance, the Tesla ignores them. Most outside drivers, Fedex and the like also don’t see them

Just very recently FSD has gotten VERY good, I still don’t trust it, but it’s light years better than it was just a year ago. Cyber cab is supposed to go live in Austin this Summer. I don’t think it’s good enough myself yet, but we will see. It’s real close though, maybe Cybercab will get special software?

Edited Wednesday at 01:19 PM by A64Pilot

[wombat]

15 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Technology has to be created/implemented to prevent these potentially deadly mistakes.  

https://www.automatesystems.co.uk/road-blockers/

 

I'm 90% joking but for the 10% that isn't....  

Let's think about the cost of installing these in 100 of the intersections that are estimated(1) to be most likely to have a dangerous runway incursion.

I'll guess each install will be about $5 million to $10 million, not counting the planning, permitting, and loss of revenue due to the runway entrance being inop during the install.

An additional $50m for systems and software updates per airport where these are going to be installed.  Let's estimate 10 airports in the US would get a system.

An additional $100k per year for each one for maintenance.  Motors, hinges, sensors, wiring, etc.

Since they will potentially damage aircraft through inadvertent deployment, let's add $50k each per year for insurance.

 

 

How much actual loss has occurred due to runway incursions at these 'worst' 100 intersections in the last 25 years in the US?   As far as I can tell(2) $0

There were 4 accidents in the US in the 90's, and 1 in the 80's.   I'm sure there have been many close calls, but nothing notable.    

While we often hate to think of it this way, is this proposed expense ($1.25 billion initial outlay plus $15 million annually) a good deal compared that to an expected payout per passenger(3) of less than $5 million?   Not if you look at the current system and its realized risk profile.   Yes, we've had some close calls, but things like a go-around are part of the current system and they have been working.

 

1: We can spend maybe 10 million dollars to do a study to determine this.

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway_incursion

3: https://www.iii.org/article/airplane-liability#:~:text=Among airlines based in modern,%24700 million to nearly %241.3

[201er]

The investigation has been completed and a probable cause has been released

 

 

https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/114070612892953565

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, C.J. said:

Runway Entrance & Stop Bar Lights currently exist & are all great, but they are no substitute for staying heads-up while taxiing and complying with a hold short clearance, confirming you're cleared across or just stopping if in doubt or utilizing the no-cost low-tech method of looking out the window left & right when crossing an active runway.

Problem was, FJ was taxiing on a runway, so the crossing doesn't have the lights and all the extra lines.

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Our Tesla won’t at least with FSD engaged, I haven’t tried to run a light manually driving, I think it won’t, but haven’t tried. If a sign isn’t where it’s supposed to be it won’t recognize it though, for instance being a fly-in neighborhood our roads are taxiways, as such the stop signs are well off to the side and real close to the ground for wing clearance, the Tesla ignores them. Most outside drivers, Fedex and the like also don’t see them

Just very recently FSD has gotten VERY good, I still don’t trust it, but it’s light years better than it was just a year ago. Cyber cab is supposed to go live in Austin this Summer. I don’t think it’s good enough myself yet, but we will see. It’s real close though, maybe Cybercab will get special software?

How does it handle a yellow light?  And does it take into account how long it is yellow?

[flyboy0681]

3 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Problem was, FJ was taxiing on a runway, so the crossing doesn't have the lights and all the extra lines.

Which only added to the pilot's confusion. Listening to the recording, he was confused from the first transmission from ground and it only continued on from there. It was pretty cringeworthy. 

[Hank]

44 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Problem was, FJ was taxiing on a runway, so the crossing doesn't have the lights and all the extra lines.

 

41 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Which only added to the pilot's confusion. Listening to the recording, he was confused from the first transmission from ground and it only continued on from there. It was pretty cringeworthy. 

His clearance was to Cross runway 34 then take the next taxiway and Hold Short. Instead he taxied onto runway 34 instead of crossing it, so no "installed system" would have been able to stop him.

[C.J.]

 

[PT20J]

Deployable spike strips at active runway entrances should do the trick 

[Pinecone]

Problem is, that causes the offending airplane to be stuck ON the runway.

I think that a big part of this will be the crew not realizing they had crossed one runway and either thought the second was the first or just did not realize that were crossing at all, forgetting that they were on a runway, so no lines and flashing lights.

[GeeBee]

I have a friend, younger than me apply to Flexjet. He was a Manager of Training for a major airline, the Fleet Captain on the 767. He applied to Flexjet. Here was their reply to his application he received just last week. 

Thank you for your interest in the First Officer position at Flexjet. We truly appreciate the time and effort you invested in your application.

Although your qualifications are impressive, the volume of applications we received made this a particularly difficult decision. After careful consideration, we have chosen not to move forward with your application. However, we will retain your information on file for any future opportunities.

Thank you once again for your interest in Flexjet. We wish you the very best in your job search and future endeavors.

Sincerely,

Flexjet Global Talent Acquisition Team

[EricJ]

16 hours ago, PT20J said:

Deployable spike strips at active runway entrances should do the trick 

Paintball marking might work, too.    An automated paint ball gun would tag the offending aircraft, serving to not only identify the aircraft, but publically shame it for an extended period of time.

[GeeBee]

42 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Paintball marking might work, too.    An automated paint ball gun would tag the offending aircraft, serving to not only identify the aircraft, but publically shame it for an extended period of time.

The problem is if it is fleet operation, I don't want to take a marked aircraft that shows some other goobers foul up. On the other hand if I am there when he brings it in, hopefully it is edible and I can make him lick it off.