Best Airplane For my Mission?

[Danny]

Hello all, I'm based in SW Washington state near PDX. I'll be needing a year round platform that does SoCal with IFR reserves over western state MEAs. (720NM) I'd also be doing the occasional trip to YVR, PSP, GTF, GCN, and the bay area. Just me and the wife.

I've been educating myself about the differences between the newer models and was wondering what the hive wisdom is on the sweet spot between the more efficient but slower K-models and something like a 305-horse Rocket.

I'm guessing TKS is a must for year round flying. Is it known icing or just for inadvertent encounters?

I'm all ears. Thanks!

[Marc_B]

First, for a 2 person IFR traveling single engine piston, a Mooney can’t be beat. For terrain and weather climbing ability a turbo Money is pretty awesome.

For a lot of us, the M20K 252/Encore is the sweet spot in terms of speed and fuel efficiency. A Bravo, Acclaim, or Rocket conversion is faster but not necessarily better useful load especially when you factor in more fuel burn.

A TKS Mooney can also increase your dispatch rate and may get you through a layer but none of the single engine pistons are true ice machines so should be flown in ice with caution regardless if FIKI certified.

From a useful load perspective, the 252 Encore conversion is a sweet spot given 3130 max gross but a little lighter empty weight than the factory Encore that had better insulation, interior and cosmetics overall.

For me, the M20K Encore is my jam. Next step up for me would come with an extra $1M or so buy-in.

[NickG]

That’s a 4-5 hour flight PDX to say, TOA. So you’d need 6 hours or so including IFR reserves to be on the safe side. 

My Ovation 3 does that no problem and I have TKS. However, just to caution, there’s really no such thing as an all-weather bird. I have a son that lives in EUG and there’s been many days over the last couple of months that I’ve wanted to fly up to see him (from HND) but the weather is a NO-GO - Low IFR, icing etc. I’m guessing a K, Ovation, Bravo, Acclaim or a J will get the job done. I know Acclaim, Bravo, Ovation and K you can get wth TKS/FIKI, I’m not sure about the J variants. I’m assuming that you have plenty of flying experience and lots in IMC. If not, I would once again caution you to take it very slowly.

There are two types of TKS system - FIKI which is Flight Into Known Icing and Inadvertent which is, just that - for inadvertent icing encounters. Same basic system except FIKI needs a backup alternator and has a heated stall warning vane. I honestly don’t know anyone with FIKI that deliberately flies into known icing conditions. For me, the system is there so if I find myself in icing condition or feel like it may be on the way, I can turn the system on as I get the hell out of there ASAP.

By the way, I live and fly all over the Southwest and haven’t regretted not having a turbo. My 310HP Ovation performs flawlessly and can do it LOP.

If you want year round reliability of arriving at your destination on time, fly commercial. That said, Mooneys are magnificent aircraft and you will be thrilled no matter what model you end up with.

[Slick Nick]

37 minutes ago, NickG said:

That’s a 4-5 hour flight PDX to say, TOA. So you’d need 6 hours or so including IFR reserves to be on the safe side. 

My Ovation 3 does that no problem and I have TKS. However, just to caution, there’s really no such thing as an all-weather bird. I have a son that lives in EUG and there’s been many days over the last couple of months that I’ve wanted to fly up to see him (from HND) but the weather is a NO-GO - Low IFR, icing etc. I’m guessing a K, Ovation, Bravo, Acclaim or a J will get the job done. I know Acclaim, Bravo, Ovation and K you can get wth TKS/FIKI, I’m not sure about the J variants. I’m assuming that you have plenty of flying experience and lots in IMC. If not, I would once again caution you to take it very slowly.

There are two types of TKS system - FIKI which is Flight Into Known Icing and Inadvertent which is, just that - for inadvertent icing encounters. Same basic system except FIKI needs a backup alternator and has a heated stall warning vane. I honestly don’t know anyone with FIKI that deliberately flies into known icing conditions. For me, the system is there so if I find myself in icing condition or feel like it may be on the way, I can turn the system on as I get the hell out of there ASAP.

By the way, I live and fly all over the Southwest and haven’t regretted not having a turbo. My 310HP Ovation performs flawlessly and can do it LOP.

If you want year round reliability of arriving at your destination on time, fly commercial. That said, Mooneys are magnificent aircraft and you will be thrilled no matter what model you end up with.

Not only that, but the whole “known” icing thing is up for debate. Is that areas where icing has actually been reported? Technically all of the prog charts are “forecast” icing, doesn’t mean it’s actually known. What’s the actual definition of “known” icing? 

I’ve got many hundreds of hours flying in actual icing conditions, and I still do everything I can to avoid it, especially in an aircraft that can’t fly fast enough for a ram rise that burns it off, like a single engine piston. Unfortunately, the Pacific Northwest means icing conditions are present for almost half of the year. 

[M20F]

1 hour ago, NickG said:

I honestly don’t know anyone with FIKI that deliberately flies into known icing conditions.

We each set our own minimums but the whole point of FIKI is to dispatch into ice. 

If it is 1000’ overcast with a 3000’ layer of light/moderate ice to CAVU on top, I am going and that is what FIKI is for.  

 

 

[M20F]

28 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

What’s the actual definition of “known” icing? 

It’s like pornography, you will know it when you see it….. 

[exM20K]

31 minutes ago, M20F said:

It’s like pornography, you will know it when you see it….. 

kinda.  I think this is the last word on “known” icing from the FAA.

if you observe icing on your airframe you best be getting somewhere else if not FIKI.

FIKI or not, that’s a good plan.

-dan

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

We each set our own minimums but the whole point of FIKI is to dispatch into ice. 

Exactly. 

A very conservative person can field a FIKI bird and use it only for inadvertent icing. 

But in many places you *will* find ice. The question is outs (above, below, turn around, elsewhere), severity/inciting conditions, duration, etc. 

I could not fly my commute many times without the ability to confidently penetrate some (reasonably forseeable) amount of ice. 

It removes an immense amount of worry to have a countermeasure. Gives you time and attention to worry about the turbulence, routing, and other hassles.

[dkkim73]

Just now, dkkim73 said:

Exactly. 

A very conservative person can field a FIKI bird and use it only for inadvertent icing. 

But in many places you *will* find ice. The question is outs (above, below, turn around, elsewhere), severity/inciting conditions, duration, etc. 

I could not fly my commute many times without the ability to confidently penetrate some (reasonably forseeable) amount of ice. 

It removes an immense amount of worry to have a countermeasure. Gives you time and attention to worry about the turbulence, routing, and other hassles.

ETA: to be clear it is often light rime or short bursts of moderate... No SLD or hanging out forever without a plan. 

[Danny]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses. 
 

My philosophy is that FIKI on a straight-wing, no bleed air airplane is that it’s a tool to fly on days where the forecast and PIREPS would ground a non-TKS airplane, but the actual conditions would allow safe operations. I spent a year of my life flying 208Bs. It was certified, but inflight icing was best treated as an emergency. Climb, descend or turn around, but never just sit there allowing it to accrete. 
 

My guess is the M20 wing/airframe allows a little more wriggle room than the ‘van. 
 

But it’s something I’d tread into very carefully. 

[exM20K]

47 minutes ago, Danny said:

My guess is the M20 wing/airframe allows a little more wriggle room than the ‘van. 
 

 Maybe.  I don’t have but an hour or 2 in a caravan, and that one was on floats, so kind of different.  
Im generally indicating 150-160 knots, and min icing speed / cruise climb is 120, so you have a little room. I don’t recall ever losing more than 10 KIAS in ice.

Was th caravan booted or TKS? The philosophy of use is different for each.

-dan

[Will.iam]

Caravan is boots. You wait until 10 Kias drop then activate the boots which sheds the ice but you only usually get 5 kias back so a losing battle and only buys you time to get out of it when more than trace.