Purchasing a M20-A 1960

[Mooney Newb]

Hello all,

I’m a new pilot, found a 1960 M20A locally. Seems like a good deal. 1200 smoh, 2600 taf. Spoke to the AD that did the last annual and he had nothing but good things to say about it. Plane will come with an annual as part of the purchase price. Hangered with dehumidifier. Previous owner has had it for 18 years. The owner is out of the area but may come back to give intro flight (if not I will contact one of the Mooney CFI that I found local to my area) has all of its logs it looks like. About 18” thick briefcase full of papers. Wings all seem firm and no delam and flap brackets have no movement. 
 

I will be flying this extensively.

What should I be looking for? 

Should I pass on this and spend 3 times as much on a piper warrior or Cessna?

 

Thank you for any advise you may have.

[MikeOH]

I assume, since you are a new pilot, that you will be a first time owner.  You need to be very careful with any purchase but especially a wood wing.  It is risky to trust the A&P that has been maintaining the plane for the current owner.

Next, 1200 SMOH seems good on the surface, but how long ago was the overhaul?

When I was shopping, the most important factor was recent and continuous use; I was looking for at least 50 hours a year for the last several years; sitting is BAD.

Is this the first plane you've looked at?  Personally, I looked at lot before I became 'calibrated' as to condition and price.  Don't rush into the purchase!

Don't be swayed by a low price; as much as any purchase, airplanes are particularly adept at taking your money now or later.  If you are buying to fly it may be better to pay a premium now.

[cliffy]

I've been at this flying game for 60 years and I have a firm saying-

NEVER BUY THE FIRST AIRPLANE YOU LOOK AT- PERIOD!

You need to look real good at many Mooneys before you can calibrate just how good one is over another

Many new pilots before you have gone down that path to their detriment.  Many right here on MooneySpace

You don't know what you don't know yet.

SECONDLY- I'm also an A&P and grew up in the time of wood and fabric airplanes- Wood airplanes are another arena all together.

Not 1 in 1,000 A&P mechanics today even knows what to look for on a wood wing.

Does he or you know what dry rot looks like? Or delamination of a wood wing Mooney

In today's market conditions, a "really good price' brings skepticism to many of us

A "free" annual by the guy that has been doing all the maintenance on the airplane for years is also subject to skepticism. 

As with all airplane purchases- Caveat Emptor

You need to find someone very familiar with Mooneys to check things out with you

Do not go into it alone. 

[Rwsavory]

Find a mechanic experienced with wood construction to do a pre purchase inspection. Have them review the logs as well. 

[1967 427]

The first Mooney I fell in love with was a 67 F and it was,( what I thought) a great price.  The owner was super to work with, but I was raised to trust but verify.  Since I live in Northern California I had access to 2 well known MSC.  I told the owner that I wanted to get a per purchase inspection that I could then turn into an annual.  Results of the annual were to run as quickly as possible from this plane.  It cost me about 2k to get this information but money well spent in the long run.  I gave the pre purchase inspection report to the owner even though I was mine since I paid for it, but it served no more purpose to me.  After the owner read the report, he called me back slashing the price even further, but I didn’t want to buy something that I wasn’t going to be able fly for some time, and the costs of getting things squared away were opened ended and I may have had to spend more than it was worth.

M20A’s take a special owner, one that wants to preserve history, I am that type of guy, but I also prefer to fly.
 

Know that up front.

[Mooney Newb]

11 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I assume, since you are a new pilot, that you will be a first time owner.  You need to be very careful with any purchase but especially a wood wing.  It is risky to trust the A&P that has been maintaining the plane for the current owner.

Next, 1200 SMOH seems good on the surface, but how long ago was the overhaul?

When I was shopping, the most important factor was recent and continuous use; I was looking for at least 50 hours a year for the last several years; sitting is BAD.

Is this the first plane you've looked at?  Personally, I looked at lot before I became 'calibrated' as to condition and price.  Don't rush into the purchase!

Don't be swayed by a low price; as much as any purchase, airplanes are particularly adept at taking your money now or later.  If you are buying to fly it may be better to pay a premium now.

I’ve looked at a couple planes in my price range and I immediately passed on them. One had a wing replaced, another was missing paint and had obvious corrosion. Looked at the logs and it has only flown about 40hr over the last 6 years. Last flown last year based off the annuals reports. Currently stored in his friends hanger who builds restores fabric wing planes who hasn’t flown since a bad car accident and is selling everything and getting rid of his hangers. 

[0TreeLemur]

If you use google to search this site using prompts like: "prebuy site:mooneyspace.com" you will read some very nice stories, and some horror stories.   Usually the horror stories start out just like your original post, followed by a bunch of warnings.   Sometimes it all works out.

It is a fact that wood wings present a unique set of challenges.  It is hard today to find shops/mechanics that know much about Mooney's, much less the challenges presented by wood and fabric.   Most of them are retired, about to retire, or gone.

It is also a fact that a 64 year old airplane with only 2600 hours total time has sat for extended periods.  After about 500 hours of sitting idle (3 weeks), the thin film of protective oil on important engine parts such as the camshaft dissipates, exposing metal to air and potentially water vapor.   Corrosion can result.  It's best to run the engine every two-three weeks, or install an engine dehumidifier.

Unless you are independently wealthy and have money to spend on fixing up an outdated antique aircraft, and will enjoy doing so, you will probably not enjoy owning an airplane that you cannot afford to own.  If you have the resources and need reliable transportation for regular use, spend as much as you can to get the aircraft you need.

We don't buy airplanes to save money.  We buy airplanes to save time.

[Mooney Newb]

21 minutes ago, 1967 427 said:

The first Mooney I fell in love with was a 67 F and it was,( what I thought) a great price.  The owner was super to work with, but I was raised to trust but verify.  Since I live in Northern California I had access to 2 well known MSC.  I told the owner that I wanted to get a per purchase inspection that I could then turn into an annual.  Results of the annual were to run as quickly as possible from this plane.  It cost me about 2k to get this information but money well spent in the long run.  I gave the pre purchase inspection report to the owner even though I was mine since I paid for it, but it served no more purpose to me.  After the owner read the report, he called me back slashing the price even further, but I didn’t want to buy something that I wasn’t going to be able fly for some time, and the costs of getting things squared away were opened ended and I may have had to spend more than it was worth.

M20A’s take a special owner, one that wants to preserve history, I am that type of guy, but I also prefer to fly.
 

Know that up front.

I love history. I have old vehicles, the newest being 23 years old and the oldest 62 years old. I have been looking for some one familiar with mooneys but not finding much except out of Texas. Plane is on the space coast in Florida. This is allegedly a flyer and I am going to fly it extensively.  

[cliffy]

Make sure you look at the tube structure in the fuselage BEHIND the sidewalls for evidence of water leaking through the side windows and running down on the tubing and rusting the tubes. There is a SB on this and a newer sidewall insulation that should have been put in.

If you can remove the interior side walls for a prebuy then you might run it near a wash rack and run water down the sides over the side windows watching inside for any leaks. There is also  SB to check the bottom rear ends of the tubing frame by removing a bolt each side and checking for rust inside that tube.

Corrosion on the main spar between the main wheels (and under the rear seat on metal wing Mooneys) is another big issue as are fuel tank leaks showing up in the wheel wells on the main spar (blue stains soaking through the rivet)s

Be prepared for a high $$$$ first annual next year. This is a fact most of the time on this website with newly purchased Mooneys. 

New airplane owner gets hit with high $$$ annual first time in the shop because of "differed" maintenance by the previous owner not disclosed at the purchase.

I'm not trying to scare you off but you have to be aware of the pitfalls of ANY airplane purchase. You don't know what you don't know.  

As my second caveat on any airplane purchase- NEVER TRUST ANYTHING SAID BY THE OWNER OR THE SALESMAN, PERIOD!

Check everything out yourself with the help of a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic. EVEN down to the data plate on the engine and the serial numbers on the prop to make sure they all match the log book entries.

Just things to bear in mind as you look at candidates to purchase. Cool your jets and take your time

Below is a prebuy check list I made up years ago for Mooneys

 

Check that all the model numbers and serial numbers match on everything with the log book, engine, prop, airframe, I do radios also. Actually read the data plates and compare to the logs. Check that the parts actually installed match what is contained in the TCDS and/or the logs show an STC change for the big stuff and changes for radios and electronics. Anything added like engine monitors, fuel flow gauges, etc should show an STC listing in the log books. 

Pull the rear seat bottom and open up the inspection holes to check for corrosion on the spar caps. Look at the spars real well in the main wheel wells for same. 

As noted fill up fuel tanks the night before and look for leaks the next day.

If you can jack the airplane do a gear over center torque check. Make sure the A&P has the correct tools to do it.

While on jacks, move the main gears in and out toward the wing tips for excessive movement. Lift the main wheels to check for play in the donuts. The donuts should expand enough after 5 mins unloaded to not have much movement. Check the mouse boots for condition in the main wheel wells. While down by the main gear look at the spar bottom between the fuselage and wheel wells. Look for smoking rivets there. The rivets that hold the spar sandwich together. That can be a big $$$$$$. I found one in AUS with almost every rivet loose on the bottom of the spar. It was grounded by the owner when Kerrville said it had to be repaired. 

Nose gear area - if on jacks this is easy- twist the nose wheel left and right to check for excessive play in the steering linkage. More than about 10-15 degrees either side of center before tightening up on the linkage is too much. You will see the slop way at the top of the nose gear on the rod end linkage up there.  

Most important on the nose gear! Look and feel for dents where the steering system touches on the tubing for dents where it touches. Turn the wheel by hand and you will see where it touches and stops. MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO DENTS THERE!

The limit is 1/32" depression. Any dents and the nose gear comes out for repair $$$$

On the tail surfaces grab the tip of the stabilizer and try to move it up and down and fore and aft. If it moves or clicks you might have work to do. Limits are about 1/10th of an inch either way. Usually fixed by changing out the "close tolerance bolts' in the hinge. As noted lift up on the rudder to check for play in the jackscrew. Same limit about 1/10 of an inch. Lots of times it is wear on the 2 bolt hinge bracket at the aft end of the jackscrew and not the jackscrew it self. I found one stabilizer that moved 1/2 inch either side of center!

Look over the outside surface of the entire airplane for dents, filliform corrosion, hangar rash (the elevator tips seem to be especially susceptible to this damage and NO repairs are allowed to control surfaces (no patches, partial skin replacement, etc). The FAA in one case here on MS made a big thing out of this stuff on a routine ramp check on one of our posters. Basically they said it didn't come that way from the factory so fix it. 

I check all the exterior control surface rod ends to see if they are loose enough to move or if dry and frozen. If dry and frozen I start looking at the logs real close to see if the lube and gear swing AD had been being done. 

One item missed almost always due to the effort but it can cause big headaches, is pulling the sidewalls inside and actually looking at the steel tubing frame for rust. If the windows are not sealed well, water gets in there and runs down inside on the tubes and rusts them. The insulation SB aside. There is actually a SB describing how to check for leaks by pulling the sidewalls and directing a water hose at the windows looking for leaks. 

Make sure everything, and I mean every switch, knob and button works as designed! Put power to it and try all radios in all modes, all lights, all warnings (landing gear warning horn, stall warning horn, etc), all exterior lights, everything that can be turned on or off or moved in and out. There was one write up on here a while back where someone bought a Mooney and the stall warning didn't work nor did the gear warning (IIRC). That makes the airplane unairworthy. 

If on jacks (and it should be) do a gear swing and make sure the gear works properly. I've seen them signed off 3 months ago and they hang 3" from the wells when sucked up. If its electric gear do a manual drop also to make sure it works. Had a couple on this board recently that went in for annual and the manual gear drop didn't work. So check it out. Look to see if the gear actuator has ever been removed, cleaned, checked for proper gear lash and relubed. If it hasn't you may be doing that on the next annual yourself  It's that important. Disregard if its a manual gear.

It goes without saying that a full log book check is required for all applicable ADs and required inspections even though the annual has just been done. The logs tell a story and knowing how to read them is a skill. Make sure you know what to look for or have someone that does. 

The engine stuff is the normal stuff. Compression check, oil filter inspection, looking for leaks, cracks, anything not normal. Pull the plugs and read them, they too have a story to tell. 

My caution to any whom I help buy an airplane? Trust no one selling an airplane period. Take nothing for granted. Don't trust anything even though it just had an annual. If you do, it will bite you in the arse. Check and verify everything before money changes hands. Once you pay for it , its yours!

Good luck and show us pictures even of the prebuy!   :-) :-)

 

[Mooney Newb]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

Make sure you look at the tube structure in the fuselage BEHIND the sidewalls for evidence of water leaking through the side windows and running down on the tubing and rusting the tubes. There is a SB on this and a newer sidewall insulation that should have been put in.

If you can remove the interior side walls for a prebuy then you might run it near a wash rack and run water down the sides over the side windows watching inside for any leaks. There is also  SB to check the bottom rear ends of the tubing frame by removing a bolt each side and checking for rust inside that tube.

Corrosion on the main spar between the main wheels (and under the rear seat on metal wing Mooneys) is another big issue as are fuel tank leaks showing up in the wheel wells on the main spar (blue stains soaking through the rivet)s

Be prepared for a high $$$$ first annual next year. This is a fact most of the time on this website with newly purchased Mooneys. 

New airplane owner gets hit with high $$$ annual first time in the shop because of "differed" maintenance by the previous owner not disclosed at the purchase.

I'm not trying to scare you off but you have to be aware of the pitfalls of ANY airplane purchase. You don't know what you don't know.  

As my second caveat on any airplane purchase- NEVER TRUST ANYTHING SAID BY THE OWNER OR THE SALESMAN, PERIOD!

Check everything out yourself with the help of a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic. EVEN down to the data plate on the engine and the serial numbers on the prop to make sure they all match the log book entries.

Just things to bear in mind as you look at candidates to purchase. Cool your jets and take your time

Below is a prebuy check list I made up years ago for Mooneys

 

Check that all the model numbers and serial numbers match on everything with the log book, engine, prop, airframe, I do radios also. Actually read the data plates and compare to the logs. Check that the parts actually installed match what is contained in the TCDS and/or the logs show an STC change for the big stuff and changes for radios and electronics. Anything added like engine monitors, fuel flow gauges, etc should show an STC listing in the log books. 

Pull the rear seat bottom and open up the inspection holes to check for corrosion on the spar caps. Look at the spars real well in the main wheel wells for same. 

As noted fill up fuel tanks the night before and look for leaks the next day.

If you can jack the airplane do a gear over center torque check. Make sure the A&P has the correct tools to do it.

While on jacks, move the main gears in and out toward the wing tips for excessive movement. Lift the main wheels to check for play in the donuts. The donuts should expand enough after 5 mins unloaded to not have much movement. Check the mouse boots for condition in the main wheel wells. While down by the main gear look at the spar bottom between the fuselage and wheel wells. Look for smoking rivets there. The rivets that hold the spar sandwich together. That can be a big $$$$$$. I found one in AUS with almost every rivet loose on the bottom of the spar. It was grounded by the owner when Kerrville said it had to be repaired. 

Nose gear area - if on jacks this is easy- twist the nose wheel left and right to check for excessive play in the steering linkage. More than about 10-15 degrees either side of center before tightening up on the linkage is too much. You will see the slop way at the top of the nose gear on the rod end linkage up there.  

Most important on the nose gear! Look and feel for dents where the steering system touches on the tubing for dents where it touches. Turn the wheel by hand and you will see where it touches and stops. MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO DENTS THERE!

The limit is 1/32" depression. Any dents and the nose gear comes out for repair $$$$

On the tail surfaces grab the tip of the stabilizer and try to move it up and down and fore and aft. If it moves or clicks you might have work to do. Limits are about 1/10th of an inch either way. Usually fixed by changing out the "close tolerance bolts' in the hinge. As noted lift up on the rudder to check for play in the jackscrew. Same limit about 1/10 of an inch. Lots of times it is wear on the 2 bolt hinge bracket at the aft end of the jackscrew and not the jackscrew it self. I found one stabilizer that moved 1/2 inch either side of center!

Look over the outside surface of the entire airplane for dents, filliform corrosion, hangar rash (the elevator tips seem to be especially susceptible to this damage and NO repairs are allowed to control surfaces (no patches, partial skin replacement, etc). The FAA in one case here on MS made a big thing out of this stuff on a routine ramp check on one of our posters. Basically they said it didn't come that way from the factory so fix it. 

I check all the exterior control surface rod ends to see if they are loose enough to move or if dry and frozen. If dry and frozen I start looking at the logs real close to see if the lube and gear swing AD had been being done. 

One item missed almost always due to the effort but it can cause big headaches, is pulling the sidewalls inside and actually looking at the steel tubing frame for rust. If the windows are not sealed well, water gets in there and runs down inside on the tubes and rusts them. The insulation SB aside. There is actually a SB describing how to check for leaks by pulling the sidewalls and directing a water hose at the windows looking for leaks. 

Make sure everything, and I mean every switch, knob and button works as designed! Put power to it and try all radios in all modes, all lights, all warnings (landing gear warning horn, stall warning horn, etc), all exterior lights, everything that can be turned on or off or moved in and out. There was one write up on here a while back where someone bought a Mooney and the stall warning didn't work nor did the gear warning (IIRC). That makes the airplane unairworthy. 

If on jacks (and it should be) do a gear swing and make sure the gear works properly. I've seen them signed off 3 months ago and they hang 3" from the wells when sucked up. If its electric gear do a manual drop also to make sure it works. Had a couple on this board recently that went in for annual and the manual gear drop didn't work. So check it out. Look to see if the gear actuator has ever been removed, cleaned, checked for proper gear lash and relubed. If it hasn't you may be doing that on the next annual yourself  It's that important. Disregard if its a manual gear.

It goes without saying that a full log book check is required for all applicable ADs and required inspections even though the annual has just been done. The logs tell a story and knowing how to read them is a skill. Make sure you know what to look for or have someone that does. 

The engine stuff is the normal stuff. Compression check, oil filter inspection, looking for leaks, cracks, anything not normal. Pull the plugs and read them, they too have a story to tell. 

My caution to any whom I help buy an airplane? Trust no one selling an airplane period. Take nothing for granted. Don't trust anything even though it just had an annual. If you do, it will bite you in the arse. Check and verify everything before money changes hands. Once you pay for it , its yours!

Good luck and show us pictures even of the prebuy!   :-) :-)

 

Thank you for the list. The company doing the annual has offered to let me observe the process. I’m going up Sunday to go over details on the purchase. 

 

added some photos. 

 

[MikeOH]

It looks like 6016X has, at the least, fallen out of registration.  Not sure how that is going to work even after a 'successful' annual.

I'm going to be very blunt: For a first time owner there are way too many red flags on this.  You should RUN. Could you get lucky? Very unlikely, IMHO.  Much more probable you are going to be spending lots of time and money before flying it. FREE could be too high a price. Seriously.

 

[Mooney Newb]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

It looks like 6016X has, at the least, fallen out of registration.  Not sure how that is going to work even after a 'successful' annual.

I'm going to be very blunt: For a first time owner there are way too many red flags on this.  You should RUN. Could you get lucky? Very unlikely, IMHO.  Much more probable you are going to be spending lots of time and money before flying it. FREE could be too high a price. Seriously.

 

Yeah I read that. Going to try and get ahold of the FSDO on Monday. Also going to speak with the school I got my PPL and has 50 or so planes in their fleet, see what they think on the reg. 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

It looks like 6016X has, at the least, fallen out of registration.  Not sure how that is going to work even after a 'successful' annual.

As of 2023-01-22 it's registered to somebody in BOCA RATON.  Then as of 2023-09-05 it's somebody in WAYCROSS GA, but the status is "Registration Pending ? Canceled".  What can it mean?

https://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/AircraftDetailPage#SUBMIT

 

[Rwsavory]

That instrument panel has neglect and disinterest written all over it. 

[Mooney Newb]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

As of 2023-01-22 it's registered to somebody in BOCA RATON.  Then as of 2023-09-05 it's somebody in WAYCROSS GA, but the status is "Registration Pending ? Canceled".  What can it mean?

https://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/AircraftDetailPage#SUBMIT

 

Previous attempted sale with a $11k annual 14 months ago where the new owner never took delivery, he also had a medical problem and lost half his foot from what I was told. Which is why the plane has been sitting in limbo for the last 14 months or so. The only person to actually fly it is the gentleman that owned it for 18 years allegedly. Boca Raton is semi local to where it’s stored at, I’ve flown between the two airports in roughly an hour, hanger space is a problem here so it could be reason. 

[Mooney Newb]

1 hour ago, Rwsavory said:

That instrument panel has neglect and disinterest written all over it. 

Yes, looks original. Was thinking of putting a more modern system in. I’m currently doing instrument training. 

[1967 427]

1 hour ago, Mooney Newb said:

Yes, looks original. Was thinking of putting a more modern system in. I’m currently doing instrument training. 

In my opinion, “ putting a more modern system in” is a minimum of 30k.

[Mooney Newb]

16 minutes ago, 1967 427 said:

In my opinion, “ putting a more modern system in” is a minimum of 30k.

Interesting. I don’t really need ifr flight training in this. I don’t see myself flying ifr intentionally. It would be nice to have it capable as Florida weather is unpredictable at best and allegedly the owner flew it ifr. From what I was told he is a retired airline pilot and now working for a charter. I have yet to speak to him directly. Good to know it’s probably 30k I was thing closer to 15-20k. 

[Rwsavory]

20 minutes ago, 1967 427 said:

In my opinion, “ putting a more modern system in” is a minimum of 30k.

Plus 3 months (minimum) to get a shop opening, plus a month in the shop, plus 5-10k for the problems they find, wiring, static system, antennas, etc.

[hammdo]

The rudder looks like a later model too  — I’d check the logs. Not sure about this one — lots of $ to get it going…

-Don

[Fritz1]

The value is around the core value of the engine and the propeller, you can buy this aircraft if you find somebody that is proficient in major wood repairs and declares the wing airworthy or repairable, properly treated wood can last for centuries, glue not so much, choose wisely!

[kerry]

Wood is a great material to work with.  Do a thorough inspection as stated in wood AD with someone that allows you to do an owner's assist annual.  My IA charges me $800 for my annual.  If you like working on airplanes and can find this kind of IA relationship, then consider it.  If not, then I would pass.

[1967 427]

11 hours ago, hammdo said:

The rudder looks like a later model too  — I’d check the logs. Not sure about this one — lots of $ to get it going…

-Don

Good eye!

[1967 427]

11 hours ago, hammdo said:

The rudder looks like a later model too  — I’d check the logs. Not sure about this one — lots of $ to get it going…

-Don

I am now obsessed with that rubber.  The skins are from a later model like F’s and J’s, and it is difficult to see from the pictures, but it doesn’t look like a full length rudder like on F’s or J’s.  It looks like the lower section is fixed.  Can that be a field approval? 337? Or a mechanic that says, “shhh it will be fine.”?

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, 1967 427 said:

I am now obsessed with that rubber.  The skins are from a later model like F’s and J’s, and it is difficult to see from the pictures, but it doesn’t look like a full length rudder like on F’s or J’s.  It looks like the lower section is fixed.  Can that be a field approval? 337? Or a mechanic that says, “shhh it will be fine.”?

No different than mine which is a 56 M20 with the tail S/B complied with in 1986 via Mooney kit.