Going too fast with flaps down

[ElisiumNate]

Hey, all! 

I've been working on taking off with my flaps down, since I'm on a shorter runway it's really helpful and I just like the takeoff better with the nose wheel getting off the ground before the speed gets too much above 65kts. 

On a recent trip, I was configuring for decent (facepalm) when I realized I had not retracted my flaps. It was a short trip, only about 15 minutes, but I was at 160kts for sure in cruise. I hit the retract lever, and looked over at the wing.  The flaps didn't look down, it almost seemed like as I was in cruise (definitely over 85kts) that the speed kind of retracted them for me.  Not good.  I wanted to ask if anyone else had made this mistake before and if it caused any damage or issues? I felt like such a dummy.  

The flaps worked fine for my landing, and a visual inspection of them after the flight revealed no obvious issues.  I don't put them all the way down hardly at all, just 2 pumps is enough for my takeoff and landing config.  

'64 E model.  Thanks! 

[bcg]

If anything happened, it's in the belly where the flaps attach. There's an AD or an SB
to reinforce that area, I think it was an AD but could be wrong. If it's been done like it should've been, then you're probably OK. If not, you've probably cracked the mount. Either way, I'd have it looked at by someone that knows what they're looking for, you can see if it's been done or if it's damaged by removing a panel and using a flashlight but you need to know what you're looking for.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[47U]

2 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

I wanted to ask if anyone else had made this mistake before and if it caused any damage or issues? I felt like such a dummy.  

Don’t beat yourself up.  Cruise airspeeds with the flaps in ‘takeoff position’ probably isn’t the death knell as a singular event… overspeed with full flaps (or someone stepping on the flaps entering/exiting the airplane) is probably much worse.  This SB addresses the issue.  Your sn is listed as applicable.

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-217.pdf

If the SB hasn’t be accomplished… the crack might be almost invisible.  Pump the flaps all the way down to the stop which puts torsion on the stub spar.  This will make the crack, if it exits, much more visible.  I got the SB kit from LASAR.  Other MSCs may also stock the kit.

If your stub spar is cracked, it’s not a difficult SB to accomplish, but will be labor intensive.  Sabermech did it without removing the baggage compartment floor.  He cut an access panel in the baggage floor to gain access.  But, his skill level is much superior to mine, for sure.

Good luck…

There’s a crack here… can you see it?

There it is…

[bcg]

9 hours ago, 47U said:

Don’t beat yourself up.  Cruise airspeeds with the flaps in ‘takeoff position’ probably isn’t the death knell as a singular event… overspeed with full flaps (or someone stepping on the flaps entering/exiting the airplane) is probably much worse.  This SB addresses the issue.  Your sn is listed as applicable.

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-217.pdf

If the SB hasn’t be accomplished… the crack might be almost invisible.  Pump the flaps all the way down to the stop which puts torsion on the stub spar.  This will make the crack, if it exits, much more visible.  I got the SB kit from LASAR.  Other MSCs may also stock the kit.

If your stub spar is cracked, it’s not a difficult SB to accomplish, but will be labor intensive.  Sabermech did it without removing the baggage compartment floor.  He cut an access panel in the baggage floor to gain access.  But, his skill level is much superior to mine, for sure.

Good luck…

There’s a crack here… can you see it?

There it is…

That's the SB I was referring to, thanks.  I've seen a few of those installed in Cs and Es, it is really labor intensive, I want to say about a 40 hour job, most of which is spent on disassembly and assembly.  The repair itself is probably only 4 or 5 hours of work, just because access is tight even with the floor out.

[hammdo]

I’m lucky David did this fix in the plane I bought from him. The doubler adds quite a bit of strength in that area…

-Don

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Hey, all! 

I've been working on taking off with my flaps down, since I'm on a shorter runway it's really helpful and I just like the takeoff better with the nose wheel getting off the ground before the speed gets too much above 65kts. 

On a recent trip, I was configuring for decent (facepalm) when I realized I had not retracted my flaps. It was a short trip, only about 15 minutes, but I was at 160kts for sure in cruise. I hit the retract lever, and looked over at the wing.  The flaps didn't look down, it almost seemed like as I was in cruise (definitely over 85kts) that the speed kind of retracted them for me.  Not good.  I wanted to ask if anyone else had made this mistake before and if it caused any damage or issues? I felt like such a dummy.  

The flaps worked fine for my landing, and a visual inspection of them after the flight revealed no obvious issues.  I don't put them all the way down hardly at all, just 2 pumps is enough for my takeoff and landing config.  

'64 E model.  Thanks! 

Just to be clear, you are taking off with the flaps in the take off position, not the fully deployed position, correct?  I only ask because I find the wording of your post a bit confusing.  From the cockpit, the visual differences between flaps up and take off flaps are minimal. I would say the same thing about the differences in air loads.  There may be some airframes out there that have never exceeded Vfe with the flaps deployed but they are in the minority.   We have not performed SB M20-217 on our aircraft, largely because the kit does not appear to be available.   We thoroughly clean and inspect both side of the stub spar at every annual. So far no cracks, in spite of a few known overspeed events in the last 50+ years...  It's good practice to thoroughly inspect the stub spar every year, especially if the SB has not been completed.

[bcg]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Just to be clear, you are taking off with the flaps in the take off position, not the fully deployed position, correct?  I only ask because I find the wording of your post a bit confusing.  From the cockpit, the visual differences between flaps up and take off flaps are minimal. I would say the same thing about the differences in air loads.  There may be some airframes out there that have never exceeded Vfe with the flaps deployed but they are in the minority.   We have not performed SB M20-217 on our aircraft, largely because the kit does not appear to be available.   We thoroughly clean and inspect both side of the stub spar at every annual. So far no cracks, in spite of a few known overspeed events in the last 50+ years...  It's good practice to thoroughly inspect the stub spar every year, especially if the SB has not been completed.

If finding the kit is the main reason you haven't done it, you might want to give Dugosh a call about the kit.  I've seen David install at least 2 of these in the last year, he's got to be getting that kit from somewhere.  He put one into an E in the last 2-3 months.

[ElisiumNate]

5 minutes ago, bcg said:

If finding the kit is the main reason you haven't done it, you might want to give Dugosh a call about the kit.  I've seen David install at least 2 of these in the last year, he's got to be getting that kit from somewhere.  He put one into an E in the last 2-3 months.

Yep I mean the “take off” position (2 pumps, lines up with a full aileron deflection when viewed from my seat before take off. Full flaps is a lot! It sure didn’t catch my eye at any point during the flight until I was doing descent checks. Short flight (15 minutes) but still kicked myself really hard when I noticed. I popped the flap release back up and watched them, but they didn’t have far to retract. 
 

thanks for the tips! I’ll pull out my logs later today and verify if this SB has been completed. I assume it has, the plane was very well kept before I bought it in January. 

[midlifeflyer]

As others said, don't beat yourself up. But this kind of thing is exactly what the often-disregarded after takeoff climb checklist is for. 

 

[ElisiumNate]

11 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

As others said, don't beat yourself up. But this kind of thing is exactly what the often-disregarded after takeoff climb checklist is for. 

 

100%. I’ve been searching for a more accessible place in the flight deck to put my checklist cards. They are neatly printed and laminated on small cards that I keep on a key ring and clip to my flight bag. Super handy! But once I get flying it’s not as simple as the old 172 door pocket haha. I just ordered a little seat protector that has a mesh pouch on the front that I believe will let me stow the checklist cards in a more accessible spot so I use them all, not just the critical ones. 

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

Yep I mean the “take off” position (2 pumps, lines up with a full aileron deflection when viewed from my seat before take off. Full flaps is a lot! It sure didn’t catch my eye at any point during the flight until I was doing descent checks. Short flight (15 minutes) but still kicked myself really hard when I noticed. I popped the flap release back up and watched them, but they didn’t have far to retract. 
 

thanks for the tips! I’ll pull out my logs later today and verify if this SB has been completed. I assume it has, the plane was very well kept before I bought it in January. 

I do not believe that when my flaps are in the take off position (15°) that they align with a fully deflected aileron, but my indicator could off a bit.

It is unlikely that the flaps retracted under load if the system is in good working order. 

[PT20J]

According to the TCDS, on a M20F, ailerons are 8 deg down, TO flaps is 15 deg down.