Door sealing

[AndreiC]

The door seals on my 70E were shot when I bought it, to the point where they were letting water in during heavy rain. I had them replaced during the annual back in October, and since then the main cabin door has been hard to close: from the outside you have to lean into the top part while closing the lever, from the inside you have to pull pretty hard on the leather strap while shoving the door closing lever.

Moreover, on takeoff the plane makes a fairly loud whistling noise in the cabin, which goes away (mostly) when leveling off. The noise appears to come mostly from the spot under the door where the bar that keeps the door open (when it is open) attaches. I can definitely feel an air current around that area, and I have taken to shoving a soft piece of cloth in that opening to keep away air intrusion. The top right corner of the door (as seen from the inside) also seems to have a gap. 

The seal material that was used was T-9088 from Brown Aircraft, recommended by several members on this board. What can be done to fix the hard closing door and the air leaks? I thought over several months the seal would soften up/compress enough to resolve these issues, but it appears not to.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I plan to go to Top Gun in Stockton sometime next week for an unrelated problem, and can ask them to look at it then, or I can try to adjust some of this stuff myself if it is not too complicated.

[slowflyin]

Lots of folks on this forum have had fantastic success with everything from custom made to Home Depot solutions.  I'm not one of them.  I tried many different types with no luck.  Finally, I broke down and bought an inflatable seal.   No fancy electric pump-just the bulb.  Works great and I'll never go back.

 

 

[AndreiC]

@slowflyinHow expensive was it? The seal itself, and the cost of installation? 

[Ragsf15e]

15 hours ago, AndreiC said:

The door seals on my 70E were shot when I bought it, to the point where they were letting water in during heavy rain. I had them replaced during the annual back in October, and since then the main cabin door has been hard to close: from the outside you have to lean into the top part while closing the lever, from the inside you have to pull pretty hard on the leather strap while shoving the door closing lever.

Moreover, on takeoff the plane makes a fairly loud whistling noise in the cabin, which goes away (mostly) when leveling off. The noise appears to come mostly from the spot under the door where the bar that keeps the door open (when it is open) attaches. I can definitely feel an air current around that area, and I have taken to shoving a soft piece of cloth in that opening to keep away air intrusion. The top right corner of the door (as seen from the inside) also seems to have a gap. 

The seal material that was used was T-9088 from Brown Aircraft, recommended by several members on this board. What can be done to fix the hard closing door and the air leaks? I thought over several months the seal would soften up/compress enough to resolve these issues, but it appears not to.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I plan to go to Top Gun in Stockton sometime next week for an unrelated problem, and can ask them to look at it then, or I can try to adjust some of this stuff myself if it is not too complicated.

Since they’re all handmade (the airplanes) and are getting older, sometimes they don’t fit exactly.  You might just need to look carefully and be prepared to remove/move that seal to exactly the place on the door where it will actually seal.  I think @PT20J had his seats out and put a flashlight behind it to see where he needed to move the sesl (before gluing).  The part number you mentioned is the prescribed part, so should be able to work with some (maybe a lot) of effort.

[Kelpro999]

Received a tip from another member Jsno , sorry not sure how to link a member, anyway I purchased from (Aircraft Door Seals LLC.) and it appears to mimic the O.E. Shape “V”. Haven’t yet installed but looks like it will work well, again haven’t installed yet.

[slowflyin]

1 hour ago, AndreiC said:

@slowflyinHow expensive was it? The seal itself, and the cost of installation? 

They are not cheap.  That being said, I probably spent as much on the wrong seals over the years without near the success.   

Mooney M20A thru M20K Inflatable Door Seals – Bob Fields Aerocessories

I did the installation myself.  

 

[Igor_U]

About year ago I installed a seal from Aircraft Door Seals LLC. it took less then an hour with a help of my friend. This is my second door seal install on my plane in 19y of ownership. Second set of hands helped a lot.

Due to hand build nature of our planes, your fit might be different but it was very difficult to close the door after the install. Issue was the aft frame, where the lock pin engages; it needed some local trimming which was minor. Also, needed to trim seal at the bottom aft section of the door, maybe some 10" long and tapered. This helped significantly as the door can now be closely aligned to the fuselage. Trick is to start with the small trim and then increase it (longer and deeper) as needed until you are happy with door fit and sealing.  

 

Good luck

[PT20J]

The most important thing about installing new seals is to get them positioned correctly and it's not obvious how they should be positioned. 

If you use the 3M yellow super trim adhesive, you have some time before it sets up tight to reposition the seal if you need to.

If your door had been leaking, it's possible that the previous owner tried to fix it by tightening the top door latch. You might need to loosen that for the new seals (assuming it works the same way as on my J model). 

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, slowflyin said:

They are not cheap.  That being said, I probably spent as much on the wrong seals over the years without near the success.   

Mooney M20A thru M20K Inflatable Door Seals – Bob Fields Aerocessories

I did the installation myself.  

 

@slowflyin- thanks for posting.  I’m close to buying the Bob Fields seal.  A few questions if you have time:

-How was the installation?  Easy/straightforward?

-What adhesive is used to install it?

-Where did you mount your bulb?

- How effective is it inflated, and is it still somewhat quiet if you forget?  Or is it so loud that you can’t forget to inflate it?

Thanks!

[FlyingDude]

8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

 I’m close to buying the Bob Fields seal.

uhm... How come? Your plane is pretty quiet and comfy. I felt no draft... 

[slowflyin]

8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

@slowflyin- thanks for posting.  I’m close to buying the Bob Fields seal.  A few questions if you have time:

-How was the installation?  Easy/straightforward?

-What adhesive is used to install it?

-Where did you mount your bulb?

- How effective is it inflated, and is it still somewhat quiet if you forget?  Or is it so loud that you can’t forget to inflate it?

Thanks!

The installation not terribly difficult.  The most challenging was removal of the glue from the previous seal.  This will be the same task for any new seal installation. 

I'll have to check on the adhesive.  I used whatever the Bob F. folks recommended.  

I mounted the bulb on the door.  

It is very effective.  Crazy quiet and draft free. If you forget it won't be for long.  It's not effective when deflated and the noise is substantial.  

[Marc_B]

1 hour ago, slowflyin said:

If you forget it won't be for long.  It's not effective when deflated and the noise is substantial.

This is my biggest apprehension going to inflatable seals.  I don't want it to just seal when I'm in the aircraft, I want it to seal from rain and elements when I'm outside as well.

[Marc_B]

I've looked through many door seal threads and have seen plenty of recommendations for each of the seals.  Not too many "stay away from this one."  This leaves me to believe that pretty much any seal works fine as long as the prep and install is good.  I've seen comments like @PT20J (comment above) about having some time to adjust to the seal right many times which leads me to believe that some fine tuning adjustment of the seal is necessary for this install to get a good seal.  I'd LOVE to see a definitive head to head seal comparison!

Aircraft Door Seals:  https://www.aircraftdoorseals.com/door-seal-entry-door-mooney-m20-series-ads-m1201/

Bob Fields Inflatable Seals: https://aerocessories.aero/collections/mooney-collection/products/mooney-all-variants

Brown T-9088 Sponge Sponge Rubber Seals: https://www.brownaircraft.com/T-9088-Sponge-Rubber-Bulb-Seal-p/t-9088.htm

GeeBee Silicone Door Seal: https://www.csobeech.com/GeeBee-DoorSeal.html

Seems like this would be a great sponsorship project for a MooneySummit or MooneyMax!  Get the companies to supply the seal and the same person to apply them during the event and compare with pics and f/up for the next year or so.  (or is there a commonly felt "best one"??)

[AndreiC]

I talked a couple of days ago with Top Gun aviation (MSC in Stockton, CA) asking them to fix this. They basically said that it may take up to a year for new seals to soften up and adjust in position to get the door to close properly. They said it is essential that the door stays closed for a while in a hot environment (like summer). It is apparently such a big difference, that they said they refuse to do door seal installations unless it is hot outside for a few weeks after the install. Since my seal was installed in late Fall in Minnesota, I will just wait until the end of the summer and see how things are afterwards.

But regarding the gap at the bottom of the door -- I am pretty sure that won't fix itself. My question is: is it possible to add more seal material in an area? How does one do it?

[PT20J]

My seals set in a couple of weeks. 

First thing I would check at the bottom is if the door sits flush with the fuselage skins to make certain the door hasn’t been sprung by people using it as a support to heft themselves out. 

The top and sides have hinges and latches to hold them in place, but the bottom does not. The seal placement is critical at the bottom. I removed the copilot seat and layed down inside and checked the placement against the door frame with a flashlight. 

[LANCECASPER]

On the Fields Inflatable Seal they will supply upon request some shim material for the bottom of the door under the seal. 

Replacing a seal looks like an easy do-it-yourself job. Let me assure that it is not, if you want it right. It won't be right the first time you set it on no matter who does it. It needs to be set and then adjusted a few times to get it right. Each door on a hand-built airplane is a little different. I liked using the Loctite silicone type adhesive that came with the Fields Inflatable Seal, which made it easier to peel it off and adjust it. I would have never got mine on a Bravo I did to seal properly without the shim material.

[PT20J]

You can test seal by inserting a piece of typing paper and closing the door on it in various locations and seeing how tightly the seal grips the paper.