Mooney J sticking to runway on take off

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Tail normally applies a down force.  You would need a healthy push to get the tail to make upwards lift.

I am talking about NO control input.

It takes very little to wheel borrow my F model. I discovered so when I first started flying it. 

[A64Pilot]

13 hours ago, Shadrach said:

It takes very little to wheel borrow my F model. I discovered so when I first started flying it. 

Interesting I’ve never wheel barrowed an aircraft or if I did I didn’t know it. I’ve rarely touched down in a three point meaning all three at once when I’ve screwed up though. I did that the other day and it surprised me. 

I see a lot of the Embry Riddle students landing on three points though, so many it makes me wonder if that’s being taught now?

How do you know you are? How do you know the mains are still in the air?

Other than seeing a student pushing the nose wheel down resulting in an immediate bounce and a go-around I’ve never seen a “wheel barrow”.

I learned in a C-152 and it got beaten into my head that their nose wheel being attached at only the firewall was fragile and it was only to be used for steering on the ground, you were never to land on it, so from the beginning I was taught to land on the mains and to slowly lower the nose just before the elevator couldn’t hold it up anymore. If you don’t land on the mains, aft pressure and go-around.

I googled it and came up with this Youtube that seems logical to me and may answer why so many Mooney’s seem to have control issues after landing, where I think a Mooney steers better than most tricycle aircraft, better than either a Piper or a Cessna anyway, especially a Cessna

Looking at this picture I think the left main being in the air is maybe more from aileron than elevator though.

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, Shadrach said:

It takes very little to wheel borrow my F model. I discovered so when I first started flying it. 

But your wing is not at a negative angle of attack, so it is making some lift in the 3 point attitude.

[PT20J]

A Mooney engineer once told me that the angle of attack during the takeoff roll is 2.5 deg. A positively cambered airfoil will generate lift at zero degrees. 

[Hank]

49 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

But your wing is not at a negative angle of attack, so it is making some lift in the 3 point attitude.

Most wheelbarrowing that I've read about here has been on the takeoff roll, not in landing. Unless I've just misunderstood everyone [always a possibility!]. The wing is making lift, and the pilot is pushing on the yoke trying to go faster, lifting the tail and the main wheels.

[skykrawler]

M20J can definitely wheel barrow on takeoff.    If you are at flying speed and get a gust before rotating is one way.

I've found that with no flaps takeoffs the airplane seems to accelerate better after 50kts and the force to pitch for take-off is much lighter.    No cleanup and re-trim required.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Most wheelbarrowing that I've read about here has been on the takeoff roll, not in landing. Unless I've just misunderstood everyone [always a possibility!]. The wing is making lift, and the pilot is pushing on the yoke trying to go faster, lifting the tail and the main wheels.

Exactly.

The Aerostar does not make upwards lift with all 3 wheels on the ground.

[Hank]

58 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Exactly.

The Aerostar does not make upwards lift with all 3 wheels on the ground.

I have zero Aerostar experience, have never even sat in one. But I did once see a video of an Aerostar gear up where both props hit, then the pilot took off without the fuselage or nacelles touching and flew "home" for repair . . . . .

[McMooney]

unless something is out of rig, setting the flaps to takeoff and going fast enough is all it takes, no pull required

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

I have zero Aerostar experience, have never even sat in one. But I did once see a video of an Aerostar gear up where both props hit, then the pilot took off without the fuselage or nacelles touching and flew "home" for repair . . . . .

Chris Gerogaklis (RIP 2021), 85 at the time. One of the weirdest aviation videos I’ve ever seen. He probably should not have done media interviews after.

 

 

 

[MikeOH]

Thanks! It has been awhile since watching that 'exquisite' display of piloting acumen

I think the only one that holds a candle to it is the link below. To be fair he wasn't a pilot (first lesson) just an idiot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAwwKoz8Diw

[Hank]

8 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I think the only one that holds a candle to it is the link below. To be fair he wasn't a pilot (first lesson) just an idiot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAwwKoz8Diw

"I don't need no stinkin' instructor!!"

You're right, they are reserved for people with functional aircraft, not piles of scrap. 

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, Hank said:

I have zero Aerostar experience, have never even sat in one. But I did once see a video of an Aerostar gear up where both props hit, then the pilot took off without the fuselage or nacelles touching and flew "home" for repair . . . . .

Yeap, that is a well known video.

The 700 will actually do a single engine take off. 

They are SWEET airplanes to fly.  GREAT handling.  I wish I could afford the maintenance on one.

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Yeap, that is a well known video.

The 700 will actually do a single engine take off. 

They are SWEET airplanes to fly.  GREAT handling.  I wish I could afford the maintenance on one.

Me, too. I've heard a lot of very good things about them. Then there's the fuel . . . .

[Pinecone]

But the SPEED.  700 can cruise at 275 KTAS.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Thanks! It has been awhile since watching that 'exquisite' display of piloting acumen

I think the only one that holds a candle to it is the link below. To be fair he wasn't a pilot (first lesson) just an idiot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAwwKoz8Diw

At the end you can hear the calling him by his nick name (or unfortunate given name), Hog.  I wonder if it was earned with years of pig headed behavior.

[A64Pilot]

The Hughes 300 in the video was no piece of scrap, I’d love to have one, it’s what I learned in, in the Army. It has a Lycoming fuel injected HIO-360, we turned it at 2900 RPM I think, rated at 180 HP but it pulled that power for a long time 

It might even have been one the Army sold, they sold them off in lots late 80’s I think.

Any Hughes is an excellent flying machine, the TH-55 which is the Hughes 269 / 300 and the AH-64 fly very similarly, both very agile if you will.

We called them LOB’s for little orange bastards, but I loved them I enjoyed them more than the OH-58 (Bell 206) or the UH-1

[Hank]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The Hughes 300 in the video was no piece of scrap

It was certainly a pile of scrap at the end of the video . . . .