Landing with speed brakes deployed

[affricate]

I use my speed breaks on the descent and during landing. It allows me a steady 500 foot per minute descent, and it also helps my Bravo "stick" to the runway, especially in the hot summer, gusty environments that we have here in the desert Southwest. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, affricate said:

 it also helps my Bravo "stick" to the runway, especially in the hot summer, gusty environments that we have here in the desert Southwest. 

This is why I raise my flaps once the nose is down and I've established good directional control. It also improves braking, which I don't use until I fall below 50 mph.

Then again, my C doesn't have speedbrakes . . . .

[affricate]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

This is why I raise my flaps once the nose is down and I've established good directional control. It also improves braking, which I don't use until I fall below 50 mph.

Then again, my C doesn't have speedbrakes . . . .

Good point, in the Bravo, I usually land flaps in the "take off" position just in case I need to go around.  

[Hank]

45 minutes ago, affricate said:

Good point, in the Bravo, I usually land flaps in the "take off" position just in case I need to go around.  

I do, too. But once rolling, while holding the throttle to idle, I put a finger on the flap switch and bring them up. Weight on the wheels makes the brakes more effective, and dumping lift makes locking a wheel much less likely. 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, affricate said:

I use my speed breaks on the descent and during landing. It allows me a steady 500 foot per minute descent, and it also helps my Bravo "stick" to the runway, especially in the hot summer, gusty environments that we have here in the desert Southwest. 

So, you deploy speed brakes at TOD and leave them out through landing?

[Brandt]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

So, you deploy speed brakes at TOD and leave them out through landing?

Yup.  Did it today.  Washington Center dumped me from 17,000 about 50 miles from KGAI.    Speed at the yellow line headed down at 1100 fpm and 25 inches.  Speed brakes through touchdown.  

[Schllc]

8 minutes ago, Brandt said:

Yup.  Did it today.  Washington Center dumped me from 17,000 about 50 miles from KGAI.    Speed at the yellow line headed down at 1100 fpm and 25 inches.  Speed brakes through touchdown.  

I get slam dunked all the time in south Florida. They will descend me from the flight levels, but seldom below 8k and 80% of the time I am over 10k within 15 miles of my airport. I assume the speeds of the mooney’s make them treat us like jets, but we can’t just cut the power, descend and slow down!  In fact I got fussed at the other day because they weren’t happy with my rate of descent, but had told me max speed 120knots.
I don’t often talk back when they are snippy, but this time i was tired of being fussed at and I told them they had  to choose!  You want me slow or low, you ain’t getting both!
You can descend without speed brakes if you had to, but it makes these kinds of profiles much easier to manage with them. 

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, affricate said:

Good point, in the Bravo, I usually land flaps in the "take off" position just in case I need to go around.  

Sorry, but that's not the recommended way to land unless there is a strong crosswind.  Consistently do that and you'll not  be prepared to land on a 2,350' runway or be afraid to even go there.

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

I do, too. But once rolling, while holding the throttle to idle, I put a finger on the flap switch and bring them up. Weight on the wheels makes the brakes more effective, and dumping lift makes locking a wheel much less likely. 

Bad technique land with approach flaps, but you can get away with it on the C Model.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Brandt said:

Yup.  Did it today.  Washington Center dumped me from 17,000 about 50 miles from KGAI.    Speed at the yellow line headed down at 1100 fpm and 25 inches.  Speed brakes through touchdown.  

Also, not a very efficient way to do it, and landing with speed brakes, well, I just wouldn't.   Better to use the prop first as a speed brake in such a descent.

[OR75]

17 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Also, not a very efficient way to do it, and landing with speed brakes, well, I just wouldn't.   Better to use the prop first as a speed brake in such a descent.

on a J the 2 blades prop quickly go from providing thrust to being a speed brake

[ArtVandelay]

Can’t always use prop to slow down, Js and maybe others have RPM/MP restrictions, SBs can help by allowing you to keep MP above limits.

[affricate]

29 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Sorry, but that's not the recommended way to land unless there is a strong crosswind.  Consistently do that and you'll not  be prepared to land on a 2,350' runway or be afraid to even go there.

I have used full flaps on shorter runways, like 2R7 with a 3000 foot runway. 
Thanks for the reminder, Don.  

[Schllc]

36 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Sorry, but that's not the recommended way to land unless there is a strong crosswind.  Consistently do that and you'll not  be prepared to land on a 2,350' runway or be afraid to even go there.

Five years ago I may have disagreed with this…

However, in my evolution of Mooney experience there was a period of time where I preferred to use approach flaps to land. It just felt like I had more control, but as my proficiency grew I realized it was actually safer, and easier on the plane to use full flaps and that is how I land all the time unless there is a really bad crosswind, or a 8,000 runaway where the fbo is on the opposite side of the airport. (which happens all the time at my parents airport).
If you find it easier to land all the time with approach flaps, you may want to take a look at or work on your technique. 
Not trying to be critical of anyone, just sharing my experience. 
 

The shortest field I have landed at with my acclaim was x01 which is a 2400x50 runway with zero displaced threshold and water about 20’ from each end of the runway. You need to be on your best game there and full flaps is a must. 
I don’t ever use the speed brakes on approach either. I was just taught it was a bad idea, but I do occasionally pop them when I am less than 10’ over the runway if I’m a little faster than I would like. 

[affricate]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

So, you deploy speed brakes at TOD and leave them out through landing?

Depends on my altitude, but usually bring back MP inch a minute while in the descent with speed brakes deployed. With the summertime heat and wind gusts in AZ, it really helps with the stability. 

[Schllc]

7 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Can’t always use prop to slow down, Js and maybe others have RPM/MP restrictions, SBs can help by allowing you to keep MP above limits.

I thought that those limits were not relevant in that configuration?  I’m often pulled all the way back to idle (over the numbers) and the rpms are very low regardless of where the prop is set. 

[Brandt]

30 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Also, not a very efficient way to do it, and landing with speed brakes, well, I just wouldn't.   Better to use the prop first as a speed brake in such a descent.

On this we disagree. 

[donkaye]

4 minutes ago, affricate said:

Depends on my altitude, but usually bring back MP inch a minute while in the descent with speed brakes deployed. With the summertime heat and wind gusts in AZ, it really helps with the stability. 

That's a lot of unnecessary work.  Both Lycoming and Continental both permit a 50°/min cooling rate on a cylinder.  At cruise a cylinder will conservatively run at 350° at cruise and 250° at idle.  So in a worst case scenario (of course you wouldn't go below 15"MP in descent) that would take 2 minutes.  So what instructor recommended 1"/minute?

[donkaye]

11 minutes ago, Brandt said:

On this we disagree. 

Well, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

[Brandt]

10 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Well, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

OK I’ll play. Why in the world would I want to add any stress to my prop governor or engine to serve as a brake when I have a purpose built device that adds to drag and allows me to keep my cht’s up in a 1000 fpm descent? And how is a prop a “more efficient” source of drag?

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

I get slam dunked all the time in south Florida. They will descend me from the flight levels, but seldom below 8k and 80% of the time I am over 10k within 15 miles of my airport. I assume the speeds of the mooney’s make them treat us like jets, but we can’t just cut the power, descend and slow down!  In fact I got fussed at the other day because they weren’t happy with my rate of descent, but had told me max speed 120knots.
I don’t often talk back when they are snippy, but this time i was tired of being fussed at and I told them they had  to choose!  You want me slow or low, you ain’t getting both!
You can descend without speed brakes if you had to, but it makes these kinds of profiles much easier to manage with them. 

Had a controller bust my Captain's chops about descent rate because the controller was late with a crossing restriction.

Controller: "You got speed brakes right?"

Me: "The Captain says to tell you those are for his mistakes, not yours."

[kortopates]

I am not a fan of landing with speed brakes as a normal landing. Its merely a crutch for lack of precise speed control and not recognizing you can reduce your final approach speed on landing below max landing weight. So for example with long body 75 kts is the final approach speed at 3200 lbs, but at 2900 lbs it becomes 71 kts (based on 1.3 x Vso). That will help eliminate a lot of float.

For a truly short field we can use 1.2 Vso, when winds aren't gusty or a strong cross wind, which reduces normal landing speed to 70 kts and the 2900 lb weight to 66 kts.

Or consider installing a Angle of Attack instrument to give you the updated landing speed for lighter weights.

Landing as a habit with approach flaps landing is another crutch. It merely reduces the need for the pilot to fully trim to approach speed on final so that stick forces in the round out are easily manageable. Without properly trimmed up for landing speed hands off, the pilot is fighting the stick forces in the roud-out and unable to be precise. It'll result in inconsistent landings cause it too much work, Its far preferable for the pilot to tame the aircraft trim in all phases of flight; especially landings.

The pilot also needs to master doing go around so that they never feel forced to continue a landing that isn't working out as hoped.

It is worthwhile to get some practice and experience in landing without flaps just in case for the day the flaps don't work so it isn't an emergency.

 

 

[A64Pilot]

A few comments.

Lycoming allow 500 F cyl head temps, but I doubt many think it’s OK to get that hot, so while they may allow 50F per min drop in temp, it may just be better to not push that number either, the 1” per min is Old School, back in the 70’s and 80’s when shock cooling was more feared than now, I think it may have come from Big turbo twins at high power trying to slam dunk approaches maybe, probably more than a bit conservative but doesn’t hurt.

Using the prop to decel and descend steeply is the way to get a turbine down quick, a piston maybe not so much.

I can post bunches of links even an FAA SB, but search this yourself https://www.google.com/search?q=detuning+a+lycoming+crankshat+balance+weights&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#ip=1

Only applicable for counterweighted engines, not all are

Again just an opinion but I think you should be comfortable landing at any flap setting because I promise you the day is coming when they won’t work.

I think everyone should also perform a couple of practice go-arounds with full flap just so they see it’s no big deal, if it’s not in my little J surely a Bravo would have no issue at all.

Extreme high DA of course is going to decrease performance, but even then surely you could get to 50’ easily and then retract flaps. 

Most of us take off at half flap, adding the other half or having no flap is no big deal. I’ve not yet forgotten to set T/O flaps, but I know eventually I’ll get stupid and forget so it’s nice to have experienced a no flap T/O once or twice

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Landing as a habit with approach flaps landing is another crutch. It merely reduces the need for the pilot to fully trim to approach speed on final so that stick forces in the round out are easily manageable. Without properly trimmed up for landing speed hands off, the pilot is fighting the stick forces in the roud-out and unable to be precise. It'll result in inconsistent landings cause it too much work, Its far preferable for the pilot to tame the aircraft trim in all phases of flight; especially landings.

It may be a crutch for you, but it's what my Owners Manual says. 

Once I'm on final, airspeed and descent angle trimmed hands off, the flaps become just another control like throttle and elevator, to be adjusted as needed to land at my desired spot. After landing, I routinely raise flaps before braking on the rollout, as more weight on the wheels makes for better stopping. When I look before raising them, or the occasions that I don't raise them on rollout, the indicator is often very close to the Takeoff mark. I often use the midfield exit at my 5000' base with only gentle braking, unless I'm landing downhill and have a little too much float.

I acknowledge that procedures are different for the long bodies, as they are heavier and have much higher nose up attitude in the ground. 

[ArtVandelay]

I thought that those limits were not relevant in that configuration?  I’m often pulled all the way back to idle (over the numbers) and the rpms are very low regardless of where the prop is set. 

Yes, when landing at low power and low speeds, but if you’re descending on approach at high speeds I think is a different story.