Electric Mooney

[Pinecone]

On 12/9/2023 at 8:19 PM, Hank said:

The EV will do that once, then the battery / motor is too hot to do it again. The gas-powered car will do so repeatedly. 

There is a video of a Tesla SUV drag racing a Dodge Hellcat.  
 

Tesla won.  But after that one pass, it had 35 miles range left.  The Dodge still had over 200 miles of fuel.

[Pinecone]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:34 PM, Hank said:

My brother's Audi goes 0-60 in 2.9. Runs on gas. That's fast enough to make me dizzy when I lift my head from the headrest.

My 2002 M3 at 4.6 second 0-60 is more than you can really use on the street.  It is nice at the track though.

[Pinecone]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:37 PM, A64Pilot said:

Let’s run the numbers on a car that gets 40 MPG. If it drives 12,000 miles a year then divide that by 40 gets you 300 gls of gas multiply that by $3 a gl gets you $900. We drove the Tesla about that milage for $600.

If you use the national average of 25.7 MPG it’s $1,400 in fuel.

Yet many are convinced without Government subsidies that it cost more to drive an EV, because they are told so. Where does that come from?

Let's see, a $12,500 tax CREDIT, means that you can the 25.7 MPH gas car for 8.5 years on the actual price difference of the cars.

[ArtVandelay]

There is a video of a Tesla SUV drag racing a Dodge Hellcat.  
 
Tesla won.  But after that one pass, it had 35 miles range left.  The Dodge still had over 200 miles of fuel.

Isn’t the Hellcat only 2 wheel drive? I believe they have a 4 wheel drive truck with same engine that’s quicker.

[A64Pilot]

21 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Let's see, a $12,500 tax CREDIT, means that you can the 25.7 MPH gas car for 8.5 years on the actual price difference of the cars.

I got ZERO tax credit, I’m against tax credits, at the time (nearly three years ago) with zero tax credits I paid less for our Model 3 than the average car in the US sold for.

I think the credit is $7,500 not $12,500? End of this month Tesla goes down to $4,500 I think.

The tax credits are essentially in my opinion nothing but additional profit for the manufacturers, look at what happened when GM and Ford got the tax credits when they came back. Pretty much overnight they jacked the price of the cars by the tax credit amount.

However in those three years it’s cost all in about $50 a month to drive the car. That’s everything less insurance. Can you do that in a gas car? Maybe a Prius can come close, but the Prius isn’t nearly as capable. I know we had one for over 10 years, great car but it sacrifices a lot to get 50+ MPG.

You see I can’t take advantage of the tax credits, Why? because I’m Retired and my retirement was set up so I’ve already paid taxes, in order to get the tax credit you have to have a substantial tax bill, and I don’t. 

That’s one reason I’m against these tax credits for Solar, cars etc. Seems odd  that they aren’t for the little guy, you know the ones that live from paycheck to paycheck are actually the ones subsidizing new cars and lower electric bills, but only for the wealthy, not for themselves

The theory of the electrician, plumber, etc. you know the working guy is supposed to pay for the Dr., Lawyer etc.’s College bill and buy them new expensive cars etc is I think wrong. The tax subsidies should go away. (my opinion)

If you want to do them, then the way the Obama administration did the “cash for clunkers” is the way to do it, give the same subsidy to everyone regardless of income, not just the wealthy.

Didn’t mean to sound political, just I agree with you, the tax subsidies are in my opinion wrong, they shouldn’t exist.

IF EV’s are a superior technology, then they will take over from ICE vehicles, they won’t need Government help, if they aren’t, then we don’t need them, they will go away.

Same for charging stations, we never subsidized gas stations, we don’t need to subsidize charging stations.

According to Barons and other sources Musk is going to make 5 BILLION dollars from his Supercharger network this year, does it sound like a business that needs subsidies?

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Isn’t the Hellcat only 2 wheel drive? I believe they have a 4 wheel drive truck with same engine that’s quicker.

Neighbor has that Hemi Jeep, he was a large auto dealer and gets whatever hot rod Chrysler makes every year, he had some kind of special HellCat last year, there apparently are different Hellcats.

Now he’s lusting for the Cybertruck, which is funny because so far he’s always turned his nose up at a Tesla, because truthfully he can’t get a deal like he can on at least Chryslers, supposedly nobody gets a deal on a Tesla, even the rental car companies that get massive deals on everything else supposedly pay the same for Teslas as everybody else, don’t know if that’s true or not, but I know the car mags aren’t given cars, one reason they hate Tesla, everybody else gives them free cars and buys advertising.

No rear wheel car can come even close to the acceleration of the Plaid without slicks and a drag strip, it’s just physics, drag strips of course are pretty much rubber covered and treated with a traction compound that’s actually so sticky it’s a little difficult to walk on because it glues your shoes to the ground, in my drag racing days long ago it was usually VHT, but Moroso also sold “Moose Juice” to treat tracks. I haven’t been on a track in decades so I don’t know what they do now, but the “hook up” on the launch pad of a track has to be experienced to be believed, many a street car has shredded their drive line because the traction is so phenomenal, irresistible force, immovable object, something has to give.

Its a little more than that for the Cybertruck and Plaid though, if you watch they being air suspension lower the nose before launch, what Musk calls “Cheetah mode” on acceleration the Plaid is level, the truck I believe is nose high, I know it is pulling a tractor pull sled.

However the Cyber truck with its big tires apparently turns the 2.6 sec and 11 sec 1/4 mile time on a track and regular asphalt both it doesn’t need the hook up from a track.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

There is a video of a Tesla SUV drag racing a Dodge Hellcat.  
 

Tesla won.  But after that one pass, it had 35 miles range left.  The Dodge still had over 200 miles of fuel.

Another myth, the truth is that a 1/4 mile pass consumes about 2% of the batteries charge

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-dead-battery-quarter-mile-time/

IF you could discharge a pack that size by way over %50 in less than 10 sec surely it would catch fire, way too much energy to dissipate in less than 10 sec.

Just by stripping every pound that’s possible out of a Plaid they are in the 8’s now, which as a trivia point was as quick as I ever got on a Turbo Kawasaki in 81 with a slick and Wheelie bar, they aren’t hotrodding the things yet but it’s going to be really interesting when they do. I imagine to get that weight they might even be removing body panels and replacing them with plastic or something.

https://insideevs.com/news/670108/tesla-model-s-plaid-sets-new-world-record-quarter-mile/

The Plaid is also in stock trim an over 200 MPH car now

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44460343/tesla-model-s-plaid-goes-203-mph-on-autobahn/#

[A64Pilot]

It should be noted that not much else is as energy dense as gasoline is at 33.4 KWH per gallon, except Diesel / Jet fuel which is slightly higher. That’s why I believe for the foreseeable future aviation will continue to burn hydrocarbons, whether fossil or bio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent#:~:text=The ratings are based on,tests simulating varying driving conditions.

So my Model 3 standard range’s battery pack is essentially 50 KWH, actually I think rated a little higher but not much and 50 is an easy number for me being math challenged.

My 50 KWH battery pack has the same energy of 1.5 gls of gasoline, yet will drive the car for 260 miles. 

How can you drive for 260 miles on 1.5 gls of gas, that’s 173 MPG? Electricity must be magical.

The answer is efficiency, a gas car is lucky to get 20% efficiency while our Model 3 is in the high 90’s.

It’s this almost five times more efficient is why in my opinion that electric will take over, you can drive over four vehicles for the same energy expenditure that we current drive 1 ICE vehicle.

it’s over 6, almost 7 to 1 if you use a Model 3 compared to the US average of 25.7 MPG.

Being electric isn’t the point, if the things were almost five times more efficient burning coal, I’d say go coal burners.

‘It’s this efficiency, not the fact that it’s electric that makes them so cheap to drive, if gasoline were 60c a gallon then a gas car would be just as cheap or cheaper to drive.

The electric car will do the same thing that LED bulbs did to incandescent bulbs and for the same reason, given time, just like it took time for LED’s to gain acceptance and come down in price.

IF and this is my opinion but if we get the government out of it and let consumers choose without government interference, because in my opinion government interference does nothing but dumb products down and drive up the cost.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

The electric car will do the same thing that LED bulbs did to incandescent bulbs and for the same reason, given time, just like it took time for LED’s to gain acceptance and come down in price.

IF and this is my opinion but if we get the government out of it and let consumers choose without government interference, because in my opinion government interference does nothing but dumb products down and drive up the cost.

You do realize that LED bulbs took over because continued manufacturing of traditional filament lightbulbs was regulated out of existence? Not made illegal, just regulated away, the same thing that Biden is trying to do to gasoline vehicles, natural gas appliances, coal power plants, dams, air conditioners that actually cool the inside air, etc., by either bureaucratic regulation or executive order?

[A64Pilot]

25 minutes ago, Hank said:

You do realize that LED bulbs took over because continued manufacturing of traditional filament lightbulbs was regulated out of existence? Not made illegal, just regulated away, the same thing that Biden is trying to do to gasoline vehicles, natural gas appliances, coal power plants, dams, air conditioners that actually cool the inside air, etc., by either bureaucratic regulation or executive order?

No, LEDs I believe have only recently become the law, this year in fact. Most people have adopted LED’s for pretty much everything years ago.

Try buying Christmas lights that aren’t LED for instance, even years before the silly law.

https://www.lumens.com/the-edit/the-ledger/the-new-led-laws-for-2023/#:~:text=In April 2022%2C President Biden's,more energy-efficient LED bulbs.

Most adopted them long before, making them illegal is the height of silliness in my opinion but does seem to be the current trend. If people want to drive up there electric bill I think we should let them, but why would anyone want to?

Many years ago I adopted CFL’s due to less energy required but also lack of heat, I live down South and having the AC fight the lightbulbs seemed wasteful.

I didn’t adopt LED’s until they became about the same price as regular bulbs, at that point why would anyone want the old bulbs? 

Same bulbs I bought for $17 a couple of years ago are now $37.

Think the law helped in that? So who wins?

Remember I’m the guy against Government involvement.

 

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

No, LEDs I believe have only recently become the law, this year in fact. Most people have adopted LED’s for pretty much everything years ago.

Actually led's over 60 or 75 watts were made illegal to manufacture years ago.

Brandons new law banned the rest of them, this time they banned even the sale of existing stocks after a certain date. But the reality is that incandescent was banned, LED didn't win the market purely on merit.  

And, just like EV's, it is questionable if the manufacturing, durability and disposal of these new lights is a net benefit to the environment.  100% of old incandescent light bulbs were eco friendly for disposal.  The new led and flourescent are highly toxic.  Also, for the lower and mid range light bulbs, they are still not particularly reliable when you consider what they claim to be a service life to be.  The cheap ones go out about as often and as randomly as the old school bulbs.

When claiming to be advantageous to the environment, the entire chain needs to be factored, not just what the electric draw is at completion.

 

[A64Pilot]

Did some reading a law was passed to effectively ban them in 2007 that was going to take place in 2012, but seems never did for different reasons. Seems That was right in the middle of the Bush presidency? 2007 that is when the first law was passed.

The August ban of 2023 seems to be the first actual implementation of the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_incandescent_light_bulbs#:~:text=The law was to effectively,watt%2C similar to a CFL.

[A64Pilot]

Anyway lights of whatever source really have nothing to do with EV’s

Some just won’t believe, regardless of facts, they are convinced of all kinds of silly things that are easily disproven.

‘Same thing happened when Hybrids first came out

[Pinecone]

On 12/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, ArtVandelay said:

Isn’t the Hellcat only 2 wheel drive? I believe they have a 4 wheel drive truck with same engine that’s quicker.

At the time of the video the Hellcat was the fastest.

There is now the Hellcat Demon and one above that.

[Pinecone]

On 12/12/2023 at 10:31 AM, A64Pilot said:

Another myth, the truth is that a 1/4 mile pass consumes about 2% of the batteries charge

 

This was not in a normal mode, but Ludicrous mode.  I am sure the video is on You Tube.

I know at track days the electric cars need to charge between sessions.  A session is 20 minutes on track.  

Most gasoline cars do not need to refuel all day long.  My M3 does gets a whopping 4.4 MPG running at VIR (two long straights)

[A64Pilot]

19 hours ago, Pinecone said:

This was not in a normal mode, but Ludicrous mode.  I am sure the video is on You Tube.

I know at track days the electric cars need to charge between sessions.  A session is 20 minutes on track.  

Most gasoline cars do not need to refuel all day long.  My M3 does gets a whopping 4.4 MPG running at VIR (two long straights)

Let’s do some math, note I make math mistakes so check.

Tesla Plaid battery is or was anyway 100 KWH, it’s a 400V battery, Ludricous mode can pull 1600 Amps, that’s about 8 times as much as an entire average house can pull by the way.

1600 x 400 = 640,000 Watts, Those are I believe the older Tesla that had Ludricous mode, I don’t think the newer ones do, but the older ones did. Ludricous and Ludicrous+ modes apparently took significant time to heat the battery so it could discharge as fast as possible. Seems that’s no longer the case, now it’s just a Plaid and the insane acceleration is always available and it’s even faster, barely a sub 2 sec 0-60 car. Tesla rates that apparently at a 1 ft roll out, how much difference 1 ft makes and or is that common for rating I don’t know. The point is the Plaid is a family car, a grocery getter, one that runs just as quiet and as smooth and reliable as any other Tesla, just has ridiculous acceleration capabilities.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-ludicrous-mode-compare-plaid/

Anyway it’s discharging at the rate or 640 KWH per hour, but a run is less than 10 sec. 

Anyway this is where I’ll probably go wrong, but a 100 KWH pack can be discharged at a 640 KWH rate for 9.37 minutes then it will be stone dead, of course long before that it would I’m sure catch fire, that kind of discharge rate is just about a direct short.

That’s 562 sec. divide that by 10 sec and it could make 56 passes before its battery is dead if it started at 100% and you took it to completely discharged.

Now the older Plaids and all older Tesla’s do what every electric device does, that is it reduces power as the charge come down. Now supposedly Tesla has licked that somehow or another with the newer cars, so I’m sure if possible that any EV that loses some power as SOC lowers would top off its battery if able, because the point is to go as fast as you can.

I used to drag race professionally, Motorcycles at a shop in Americus Ga called back the Star Cycles. A full race day of eliminations may have been four or five passes and that would have been uncommon.

https://www.dragbike.com/star-racing-george-and-jackie-bryce-build-a-small-motorcycle-speed-shop-into-a-drag-racing-institution/

I Can’t imagine anyone making a dozen passes, much less dozens in a day, that used to wasn’t possible you would certainly break something first.

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I Can’t imagine anyone making a dozen passes, much less dozens in a day, that used to wasn’t possible you would certainly break something first.

Quarter mile passes, no. But I have friends who spend the weekend at road courses, running pretty much wide open for hours at a time. In gas cars, of course, to avoid the endless hours of cooling the batteries, charging, and cooling the batteriesagain between short stints on the track.

[A64Pilot]

You mean like the Nuremberg ring?

Might want to check out some videos of Tesla’s on the ring, the ring is of course the gold standard for the world road course wise, every sports car manufacturer tests on the ring and publishes track times, except Ford, Ford says they don’t because track performance has nothing to do with real world driving. So why do they test on the ring?

But like I said Tesla’s especially the Plaid aren’t track cars, they do well, but only because they have insane acceleration, they don’t have the suspension and especially the brakes to be a real track car. God knows what one could do with a real track suspension and brakes. It really is a family car with stupid acceleration.

‘See every one of these things are running stock gear, no one as of yet as far as I know is hot rodding them, can you image one with an after market hot rod drive train?

Having said that the overwhelming majority of auto drivers wouldn’t like a real track car, low ground clearance, stiff suspension, not so plush seats etc. My little Mazda Speed Miata was a sales failure because of that, scrapes going over speeds bumps, rides rough etc. but ain’t a bad little track car, is actually a darned good one with a few mods.

It’s actually surprising that the Plaid does as well as it does, because it’s not a light car (4776 lbs) and at the speeds it’s capable of surely it quickly cooks its brakes, has to.

My Model 3 at 3,862 lbs would probably be a better track car, just of course wouldn’t have the acceleration, but 900 lbs is hard to overcome when cornering and stopping

[A64Pilot]

A 3 Performance on the ring three years ago, even by that time the overheating battery / motors had been solved, but it’s no track car, it’s just not in its mission. It was designed as a family car.

Using my Standard 3, the suspension is too soft, good tires, inadequate brakes but the steering wheel is horrible, just too small and to say the steering is too vague is being kind to it, it’s not as bad as say a 1976 Caddy but it’s sort of similar, you just don’t get the feedback you should for a track car, but then honestly any kind of power steering isn’t as good as manual for feedback.

The seats are great on the highway, can sit for hours without my back hurting, but try and corner hard and there just aren’t the kind of bolsters you need to stay in the seat, so fix the brakes, fix the steering and stiffen up the suspension and put a set of Recaro’s in it and it just might be a good track car, the power is there and more importantly it’s extremely linear and predictable, no surge when the turbo comes on boost and no power band, just a linear increase in power that never varies, so it’s easy to carry a four wheel drift in a turn or add just a little bit of under or oversteer with the throttle.

 

[Hank]

14 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You mean like the Nuremberg ring?

No, I mean individual car enthusiasts, in a club, going somewhere like Road Atlanta and racing each other.

Shipping a car to Germany to run on their track is cost-prohibitive for everyone I know who takes cars to tracks. I don't know any drag racers, that's a different set of challenges with different solutions. "There's no replacement for displacement."--Big Daddy Don Garlits

Richard Petty drove differently, so does Kyle Bush, Crybaby Gordon, the Andretti boys, all of them.

[A64Pilot]

I brought up the ring because that is the acid course period, if your car has any weaknesses the ring will find it, and of course as every manufacturer test you have very good lap times to compare yourself to. I lived in Germany and was going to run the ring in my 93 Z28, but Bosnia got in the way and didn’t get to.

I used to race Road Atl when there was still a gravity cavity on motorcycles and raced small tracks usually like Roebling Road and little Talkedega.

‘The pic is when I sent the Wife to an open wheel Skip Barber class years ago, so we are both familiar with tracks, but most of mine was motorcycles.