Deciding when to reseal/bladder vs patch

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

You should be using non marring tools for sealant removal. I use a scroll saw to cut custom shaped tools from plexiglass then smooth an area far a hand grip on my grinder.

I have found a belt sander works better for sharpening your scrapers than a grinder. You can then put a fine edge on them with a file.

[Shadrach]

46 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have found a belt sander works better for sharpening your scrapers than a grinder. You can then put a fine edge on them with a file.

I use a file for the edge. The grinder is to round out a more ergonomic handle

[Huckster79]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:47 AM, dennis riz said:

have you figured how much fuel you are losing?? I have similar leak and at one point missing 25-30 gallons of gas trying to figure out it if it leaks that much, I dont see fuel on hangar floor

I see nothing on the hangar floor either... So I'm not sure... 

[Huckster79]

20 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 

What's a complete reseal cost these days? $9K? More? It's my opinion that a reseal is a complete waste of money and resources unless it has been determined that the sealant is deteriorating.  That determination has yet to be made in this case.

Almost any reseal situation other than deteriorating sealant will mean significantly more effort will be devoted to removing perfectly good sealant than correcting the actual problem(s).  Localized repairs are not difficult and are long lasting if performed IAW approved procedures and materials.   

Mike Busch has created a successful business whose primary service is preventing needless maintenance.  I know that's not how it's marketed precisely, but that is exactly the end game of the service being provided.  The OP is new to Mooneys and has yet to determine the cause of the leaks. Probably more prudent to determine the condition of the tanks rather than to just throw 10K at it.  Every dollar spent on unnecessary maintenance is a dollar that could otherwise be spent on enhancing safety and reliability. 

I've been told its north of 10.   I was somewhat hoping for a response similar to yours, as that was already my default mode of thinking, being a Mike Busch follower.  I get that he's the engine guy but the "theology" seems to make sense on any maintenance.  So I think what you say makes sense, is I need to get in there with my mechanic and scope things out. If its a mole hill address it as a mole hill, if its a mountain address it like a mountain.   Several folks have mentioned that this location could also simply be a leaking fuel sender, so again plays into the "don't throw money at it, just to say ya did" mentality.  So I'll get in there with my mechanic and we will scope out the general condition of the tank seal, after we rule out the fuel sender, and evaluate from there.  I have no issue spending the money if she needs it, but much like you and Busch, if there's no true need to throw money at it, then there's no need to throw big money at it...

I know Maxwells did some repairs about 18 months ago at the previous owners last annual, and though I've had no recent hard landings in her, I did this spring getting to know her,  the site pic is so much lower than even my lil C140 was I sometimes misjudged my touchdown, but I don't recall any particularly uber hard ones, just some that one wouldn't want to brag about...  But sounds like the slow n steady approach to figure out the best solution is going to be the route to go.

 

 

 

[Huckster79]

I really value all the input from more experienced Mooney folks!!! Thank You all so much for sharing with me! 

I'm anxious to learn her thoroughly and this is one big step of that being this is my first "challenge" in ownership of her.  I knew my little Cessna 140, though far simpler machine, like I know the back of my hand, and over a few years I hope to become just as "astute" in my Mooney knowledge- so I really appreciate everyones input as this is how us rookies become old salts...

So thank you to all who gave me food for thought.  

At this point my plan is as follows:

1. Get in and inspect fuel sending unit to rule that out, or address it if its the culprit.

2. If #1 is ruled out, Open the top inspection panels and assess the general condition of the sealant.  If looking degraded then get on the schedule for full redo.  

3. Make the plexiglass inspection panels and get it under vacuum and find the issue and make the repair with my A&P, I know they have done some other wet wing work for folks.  As even if it looks like it needs a full redo, a repair wouldn't be unwise to do anyway would it? Being the big shops seem to be out quite a ways? 

 

Thank You all again!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

If you are going to remove a tank panel, you might want to remove a bottom panel. It is easier on the appearance of your wing and it is easier to see the top of the tank, which is probably where the leak is.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Huckster79 said:

 "don't throw money at it, just to say ya did" mentality.  

I have a few acquaintances that engage in that kind of foolishness. Some are guilty of over stating what the spend on  maintenance items.  They seem to derive a sense of superiority from it. I find that kind of behavior insufferable for the most part.

1 hour ago, Huckster79 said:

I know Maxwells did some repairs about 18 months ago at the previous owners last annual, and though I've had no recent hard landings in her, I did this spring getting to know her,  the site pic is so much lower than even my lil C140 was I sometimes misjudged my touchdown, but I don't recall any particularly uber hard ones, just some that one wouldn't want to brag about...  But sounds like the slow n steady approach to figure out the best solution is going to be the route to go.

I am dubious on the idea that hard landings cause tank leaks…unless the landing is so hard that plane is not reusable. Wings flex as a single unit. If they didn’t, there would be rivet smoke everywhere after flying in light chop. If sealant were so vulnerable to wing flex, those of us that fly east of the Mississippi in the summertime would be resealing every year from turbulence. I do think that wing flex might sometimes be the final straw in causing a problem area to reveal itself. That being said, I would never blame a leak on a landing or landing surface (I’ll happily land on grass if it’s in reasonable condition).

[Shadrach]

Also, avoid using metal on the access panels. At times I have had to use a metal putty knife to to get in between the mating surfaces but it will scratch the alclad. A thin 1.5” plastic putty knife is my tool of choice for separating access panels. You can periodically sand it to keep it sharp.

[Huckster79]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

I have a few acquaintances that engage in that kind of foolishness. Some are guilty of over stating what the spend on  maintenance items.  They seem to derive a sense of superiority from it. I find that kind of behavior insufferable for the most part.

I am dubious on the idea that hard landings cause tank leaks…unless the landing is so hard that plane is not reusable. Wings flex as a single unit. If they didn’t, there would be rivet smoke everywhere after flying in light chop. If sealant were so vulnerable to wing flex, those of us that fly east of the Mississippi in the summertime would be resealing every year from turbulence. I do think that wing flex might sometimes be the final straw causing a problem area to reveal it self. But I would never blame a leak on a landing or landing surface (I’ll happily land on grass if it’s in reasonable condition).

 

Makes total sense, all of that!  And yes I think some folks do find a sense of pride out of throwing money at birds just to throw money, and then accuse folks like you and I of "If you can't afford to do it the most expensive way possible, you need a new hobby", as I've heard that line or similar 1000 times.  In my maintenance theology I've always searched for the middle ground, I will gladly invest what I need to to keep my bird in top notch shape, so I'm not always looking for the "Cheapest" route, however I am always looking for the best "Value" which may or may not be the cheapest nor most expensive... If my sealant is in rough shape I have no problem getting on the list to get them done right, but if looks good overall I think a repair seems most reasonable.  

Thank You so much.

[DCarlton]

It's interesting to see how the discussion developed after me simply saying you're lucky to live near Wilmar.  I missed my tank sealing appointment due to an unplanned maintenance issue; I made it one of the 3-4 hops to get to Wilmar.  Now I'm considering selling again or bladders or patches if I can't get to Wilmar before 2025.  I've never had the luxury to throw money at my airplane.  I've only been able to keep up with unplanned or required, mandated maintenance requirements.  I've had three serious in flight issues in my flying time; I would have preferred none; I had my Mooney engine overhauled after the second one.  There's a point in life where you'd like to get ahead of maintenance, and take a more proactive maintenance stance.  It would be nice to get ahead instead of chasing emergent tasks (regardless of what Mike Busch says; I have his book too).  If I had a shop and the space, and a mechanic I could work with for a few more years, I'm one of those guys that would enjoy completely gutting a Mooney down to the bare airframe, and then rebuilding it or restoring it all new.  It's not practical nor is it necessary, but it would be a lot of fun and very satisfying.  Working with old stuff gets .... old after a while.   Been there done that with an airplane, a boat, and a classic car.   

[Huckster79]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

It's interesting to see how the discussion developed after me simply saying you're lucky to live near Wilmar.  I missed my tank sealing appointment due to an unplanned maintenance issue; I made it one of the 3-4 hops to get to Wilmar.  Now I'm considering selling again or bladders or patches if I can't get to Wilmar before 2025.  I've never had the luxury to throw money at my airplane.  I've only been able to keep up with unplanned or required, mandated maintenance requirements.  I've had three serious in flight issues in my flying time; I would have preferred none; I had my Mooney engine overhauled after the second one.  There's a point in life where you'd like to get ahead of maintenance, and take a more proactive maintenance stance.  It would be nice to get ahead instead of chasing emergent tasks (regardless of what Mike Busch says; I have his book too).  If I had a shop and the space, and a mechanic I could work with for a few more years, I'm one of those guys that would enjoy completely gutting a Mooney down to the bare airframe, and then rebuilding it or restoring it all new.  It's not practical nor is it necessary, but it would be a lot of fun and very satisfying.  Working with old stuff gets .... old after a while.   Been there done that with an airplane, a boat, and a classic car.   

Oh and Wilmar is certainly a possibility still... All options are on the table, I'm just trying to take a methodical approach.  By no means did I mean you were implying that one must absolutely spend the most, none of the comments here I don't believe are really coming from that mentality, even those suggesting shops if its needed.  I was referring to folks I've talked to, and a few comments on FB that literally included a line similar to "if you can't spend the money to do it how I would, you need a new hobby"

I meant no offense to you, or any of the mooneyspace gang, not by a long shot, so appreciative of each of you that took the time to respond.  Wilmar is on the table and if the sealant overall condition looks poor, I'll be getting on the list.  But if overall it looks good, I am more of the mentality to repair, but not if it looks obvious that it's a fools errand to repair.  

And I'm with you if I had the time, facility, proper assistance, and funds I would love to do a restore down to the last bolt, I think it would be very interesting... I've often thought I may try to pull it off when I retire- go get my A&P and rebuild one to brand new for the fun of it.  But for right now, I'm trying to find the right balance of downtime, value of the maintenance funds spent, etc.  I have a learning curve to still tackle on this bird, and I'm sure I'll make some wrong calls as I learn.  

I sure appreciate your input, and my apologies if I came off critical of anyone here, was not my intent at all. 

[DCarlton]

35 minutes ago, Huckster79 said:

Oh and Wilmar is certainly a possibility still... All options are on the table, I'm just trying to take a methodical approach.  By no means did I mean you were implying that one must absolutely spend the most, none of the comments here I don't believe are really coming from that mentality, even those suggesting shops if its needed.  I was referring to folks I've talked to, and a few comments on FB that literally included a line similar to "if you can't spend the money to do it how I would, you need a new hobby"

I meant no offense to you, or any of the mooneyspace gang, not by a long shot, so appreciative of each of you that took the time to respond.  Wilmar is on the table and if the sealant overall condition looks poor, I'll be getting on the list.  But if overall it looks good, I am more of the mentality to repair, but not if it looks obvious that it's a fools errand to repair.  

And I'm with you if I had the time, facility, proper assistance, and funds I would love to do a restore down to the last bolt, I think it would be very interesting... I've often thought I may try to pull it off when I retire- go get my A&P and rebuild one to brand new for the fun of it.  But for right now, I'm trying to find the right balance of downtime, value of the maintenance funds spent, etc.  I have a learning curve to still tackle on this bird, and I'm sure I'll make some wrong calls as I learn.  

I sure appreciate your input, and my apologies if I came off critical of anyone here, was not my intent at all. 

MS is great.  The community has helped me many times and they've most certainly saved me money.  My annual is coming up next week.  This discussion has prompted me to look closer one more time and my left tank and see if the problem may be coming from the outboard sender.  I think my right tank is gonna need a reseal though.  

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

It's interesting to see how the discussion developed after me simply saying you're lucky to live near Wilmar.  I missed my tank sealing appointment due to an unplanned maintenance issue; I made it one of the 3-4 hops to get to Wilmar.  Now I'm considering selling again or bladders or patches if I can't get to Wilmar before 2025.  I've never had the luxury to throw money at my airplane.  I've only been able to keep up with unplanned or required, mandated maintenance requirements.  I've had three serious in flight issues in my flying time; I would have preferred none; I had my Mooney engine overhauled after the second one.  There's a point in life where you'd like to get ahead of maintenance, and take a more proactive maintenance stance.  It would be nice to get ahead instead of chasing emergent tasks (regardless of what Mike Busch says; I have his book too).  If I had a shop and the space, and a mechanic I could work with for a few more years, I'm one of those guys that would enjoy completely gutting a Mooney down to the bare airframe, and then rebuilding it or restoring it all new.  It's not practical nor is it necessary, but it would be a lot of fun and very satisfying.  Working with old stuff gets .... old after a while.   Been there done that with an airplane, a boat, and a classic car.   

My post was not meant to imply anything about you personally. Just pointing out that the community is sometimes quick to recommend a complete reseal when it’s not necessary. My opinion comes from my personal experience dealing with repairs, procedures and materials.

The later post about people who embellish their maintenance costs had nothing to do with you whatsoever. I had a specific individual at my base in mind. He’s had the same paint job since 2012 But every time he mentions it, it gets more expensive.

As an aside, it’s often the case that people want to replace rather than repair. When I had my crankcase crack back on 2010, the vast majority of pilots I spoke with about it suggested that my 900hr engine was best used as a core trade for a factory engine. I am glad I went my own way. 

 

[Huckster79]

Toughest part for me is this had to wait to Nov in MI… makes hangar work far less pleasant for doing diagnosis, if we repair it’ll go in my mechanics shop but the ahead of time diagnostic work I like to do myself and have him come over so I’m not paying for basic troubleshooting.  I  Gotta put styrofoam on the ceiling next summer so I can  have a hope at some heat… 

[DCarlton]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

My post was not meant to imply anything about you personally. Just pointing out that the community is sometimes quick to recommend a complete reseal when it’s not necessary. My opinion comes from my personal experience dealing with repairs, procedures and materials.

The later post about people who embellish their maintenance costs had nothing to do with you whatsoever. I had a specific individual at my base in mind. He’s had the same paint job since 2012 But every time he mentions it, it gets more expensive.

As an aside, it’s often the case that people want to replace rather than repair. When I had my crankcase crack back on 2010, the vast majority of pilots I spoke with about it suggested that my 900hr engine was best used as a core trade for a factory engine. I am glad I went my own way. 

 

Replace rather than repair is definitely becoming the norm.  I think the cost of labor has driven it in that direction.  Ole school skills get forever lost along the way.  

[Immelman]

15 yrs owning my E

Have done 3 patches.

Still original sealant.

Every few years, something else starts a new, small leak. Usually ok to continue for a while. Yours does not look okay to continue.

I figure I am still ahead vs the time, cost, and failure potential of having it fully stripped and resealed.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Immelman said:

15 yrs owning my E

Have done 3 patches.

Still original sealant.

Every few years, something else starts a new, small leak. Usually ok to continue for a while. Yours does not look okay to continue.

I figure I am still ahead vs the time, cost, and failure potential of having it fully stripped and resealed.

What year is your plane? 

[67 m20F chump]

I had to replace my wing.  The parted out one had spent ten years in a hot hangar empty.  The sealant was coming off in chunks.  I stripped off the pro seal and was just about to start in replacing it when I had a moment of clarity.  I bought the bladder STC and have been happy with my decision.  I never want to strip sealant again.  I did the install with supervision and it is working out well so far.

[Jsno]

On 11/7/2023 at 6:29 PM, Shadrach said:

You should be using non marring tools for sealant removal. I use a scroll saw to cut custom shaped tools from plexiglass then smooth an area for a hand grip on my grinder.

I hve used the plasti red and orange scrapers.  They dull very quickly.  Plexiglass wi  mar the Alclad and Alidine.  I have just bought a couple of nylon scrapers fro Aircraft Spruce and they are working well and keep the edge longer.  Probably only six more weeks of scraping...

[Immelman]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:04 AM, Shadrach said:

What year is your plane? 

1966

[Shadrach]

52 minutes ago, Immelman said:

1966

Wow, that is impressive. That OG sealant owes you nothing. I think hangared aircraft tend to do better because the top of the wing isn’t getting baked in the summer sun.

[DCarlton]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:11 AM, 67 m20F chump said:

I had to replace my wing.  The parted out one had spent ten years in a hot hangar empty.  The sealant was coming off in chunks.  I stripped off the pro seal and was just about to start in replacing it when I had a moment of clarity.  I bought the bladder STC and have been happy with my decision.  I never want to strip sealant again.  I did the install with supervision and it is working out well so far.

Did you go with the full 64 gal bladder kit?  I'm considering bladders now.  Wondering if I really need the extra 10 gallons.  

[jetdriven]

if you do the bladders, get the full 64.

[67 m20F chump]

19 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Did you go with the full 64 gal bladder kit?  I'm considering bladders now.  Wondering if I really need the extra 10 gallons.  

Yes I went 64 gal.  I think you would be fine with less capacity.  No way at my age could I stay in the plane that long!  You could always add those last two bladders later if you needed.

[jetdriven]

it cost over 7K to add the second two bladders to make it 64. Just do it upfront.  You may not want to fly out all 64 gallons but its ncie to tanker fuel roundtrip and skip the 8$ avgas at the place you're going, for example.