Engine preheat on the ramp - options

[A64Pilot]

11 hours ago, larryb said:

You would not need a pure sine wave inverter, the heaters don't care how clean the power is. 

With the battery setup one could use a cellswitch to turn on the inverter remotely 3 hours before flight. It would require some hacking to power the cellswitch directly from the battery so the inverter would not have to run during standby. But it could done relatively easily.  

You don’t need a pure sine that’s true, but almost any quality inverter is a pure sine (avoid Xantrex) But if you have a pure sine, then you can power anything, it gives you the ability to use it for other things, anything actually.  A good pure sine inverter or Honda generator’s power is “cleaner” than grid power, the Honda is astonishingly stable, even with its RPM changing.

You can do this cheaply with Walmart batteries etc, and you will get what you pay for. Good as in Trojan or Concorde batteries you can’t get for $70 a battery, more like $250 a battery.

But if you want to do the battery thing, this is one of those times LifePo4 makes more sense (in my opinion), you can get a decent 100 AH 12V LifePo4 for $250 or so and instead of 80 lbs a battery they are 25 lbs, and almost all of those 100 AH are usable where lead acid you should only use 50, of course you can use more but cycle life limit drops drastically if you deep discharge. So you could do it with a LifePo4 for less weight than a generator.

I’d guess lightweight box with charger and everything maybe even put wheels on it like a carry on bag for 40 lbs or less, you still have the how is it getting charged issue though, with multiple people flying taking it home isn’t going to work

If you want to do lead acid batteries the best bang for the buck is Costco or Sam’s Club 6V GC-2 golf cart batteries, they are quality either East Penn or Deca US manufactured batteries and used to be you could get an AH for $1 an AH. I know this because on cruising boats 800-1000 AH banks were common, and banks got a lot of attention because if you had to drop a couple grand for one people tended to do their homework, plus if your band goes dead in the Caribbean, good luck, if you can get them it’s likely two weeks or more and 3 or 4 K to replace a bank.

I’ve not shopped deep cycle batteries in quite awhile since we moved off the boat, but when my golf cart ones die, I really don’t think I will replace them with anybody’s lead acid ones, for especially deep cycle non aviation application my opinion is the sun’s set on lead acid.

 

[A64Pilot]

23 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Wow - that is some trick - actually the "trifecta"....  Not sure how old you are but that sounds like they probably had an old school PA-12 with highly flammable cotton fabric and nitrocellulose dope.   Didn't melt through the ice, didn't set the engine on fire and didn't set the fabric on fire!  Bet the plane had a nice smoky smell.....

Talking to bush pilots in Alaska 50 years ago that was common, they usually used their cook stoves though, some rig up chimneys with stove pipe. Now they hump a generator usually, but it is much heavier, but safer.

The other trick was to drain the oil immediately after landing and heat it with the cook stove, dump it in the engine and hope she starts quickly.

For trucks etc the thing was to build a fire with charcoal briquette’s in a metal trash can lid, then slide that under the truck and in less than an hour she would start.

Personally I’ve never done any of this, just listening to them as a kid when we flew through that part of the world in July.

In the Army I learned that I’m allergic to cold.

[Fly Boomer]

59 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Wow - that is some trick - actually the "trifecta"....  Not sure how old you are but that sounds like they probably had an old school PA-12 with highly flammable cotton fabric and nitrocellulose dope.   Didn't melt through the ice, didn't set the engine on fire and didn't set the fabric on fire!  Bet the plane had a nice smoky smell.....

After the engine "pre-heat", they poured the oil back in that had been pre-heating on the stove, dad propped it, and away they went.

[FlyboyKC]

On 8/25/2023 at 1:00 PM, generalaviationguru said:

Due to an unscrupulous FBO manager, our airplane is going to be stuck on the ramp for the foreseeable future, despite a hanger spot sitting open.  Our F was previously based in NYC and has a very nice engine preheater installed (full engine, not just the sump).  

we are trying to come up with options to power it out on the ramp. The parking spot is not reasonably close to any buildings on the airport and is a 45 minute drive from the house in the opposite direction of all of our other activities.  
 

We would love some ideas.
 

We have thought of:

1. chaining a generator to the tiedown and asking the staff to crank it up in the night before.

2. Buying one of those battery packs people use for tailgating, and then asking someone at FBO to turn it on the night before.  (problem is how do you get recharged and back out to the plane)

 

Or are we just crazy and Should we just deal with the consequences of being parked Outside…

I have a small generator, like this one  

https://www.amazon.com/sspa/click?ie=UTF8&spc=MTo1MzU2Njg5NDM3NTY2NjAzOjE2OTMxNTkwNzk6c3Bfc2VhcmNoX3RoZW1hdGljOjIwMDAzNDQ5MDY4MTk5ODo6MDo6&url=%2FPulsar-G2319N-Gas-Powered-Generator-Capability%2Fdp%2FB00YFT914I%2Fref%3Dsxin_17_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa%3Fcontent-id%3Damzn1.sym.abea0cd6-ddf4-4d67-9781-9599c1d665fc%3Aamzn1.sym.abea0cd6-ddf4-4d67-9781-9599c1d665fc%26crid%3D3N3E4DD4G690F%26cv_ct_cx%3Dsportsman%2Bgenerator%26keywords%3Dsportsman%2Bgenerator%26pd_rd_i%3DB00YFT914I%26pd_rd_r%3Df53b23d1-85f9-42c0-9ea8-13000db90aab%26pd_rd_w%3DcSnfP%26pd_rd_wg%3D8lKk6%26pf_rd_p%3Dabea0cd6-ddf4-4d67-9781-9599c1d665fc%26pf_rd_r%3DNKF8Q1P0E0JRJDQM8VES%26qid%3D1693159079%26sbo%3DRZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D%26sprefix%3Dsportsman%2Bg%2Caps%2C1301%26sr%3D1-1-0cc546a2-7bf2-4d0e-b4ad-0f0d9092fdfc-spons%26ufe%3Dapp_do%3Aamzn1.fos.ac2169a1-b668-44b9-8bd0-5ec63b24bcb5%26sp_csd%3Dd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM%26psc%3D1

It works pretty well and its pretty lightweight. Its nice because it fits in the cargo compartment so I can travel to colder climates and be able to preheat on the ramp. The only caution is to keep the generator warm before use, or else its a PITA to start when cold soaked.

[LANCECASPER]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:25 AM, generalaviationguru said:

Thanks.  We are co-owners, so it would have to be left with the plane when the plane is not in service. The airport is pretty far away drive wise for all of us, so we might have to take our chances with the chains. Hopefully there aren’t too many criminals on the airport ground

Near NYC? I give it 24 hours before it's gone . . . Lol

[AndreiC]

At my field the FBO charges $10 to tow my plane to a spot near the hangars and to plug it in. I call them a few hours before I plan to fly, or in the late afternoon the day before the flight if I plan to leave early the next day.

Also, how cold do Atlanta mornings get? At my field (in WI where it gets quite cold) the wisdom is that above 32F you don’t need preheat, between 20 and 32 you get by with a blanket and electrical heating, below 20 you need a propane heater. BTW, a good propane heater will heat up an engine in 20 minutes if it is 25F, so I would get one of those with a LiPo battery and an inverter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[generalaviationguru]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Near NYC? I give it 24 hours before it's gone . . . Lol

We are in ATL area.  We purchased from gentleman in NYC.

[generalaviationguru]

2 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

At my field the FBO charges $10 to tow my plane to a spot near the hangars and to plug it in. I call them a few hours before I plan to fly, or in the late afternoon the day before the flight if I plan to leave early the next day.

Also, how cold do Atlanta mornings get? At my field (in WI where it gets quite cold) the wisdom is that above 32F you don’t need preheat, between 20 and 32 you get by with a blanket and electrical heating, below 20 you need a propane heater. BTW, a good propane heater will heat up an engine in 20 minutes if it is 25F, so I would get one of those with a LiPo battery and an inverter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Normally, in the deepest part of winter, Mid-low 20s.  The most awful mornings are in the mid teens on occasions.  

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

At my field the FBO charges $10 to tow my plane to a spot near the hangars and to plug it in. I call them a few hours before I plan to fly, or in the late afternoon the day before the flight if I plan to leave early the next day.

Also, how cold do Atlanta mornings get? At my field (in WI where it gets quite cold) the wisdom is that above 32F you don’t need preheat, between 20 and 32 you get by with a blanket and electrical heating, below 20 you need a propane heater. BTW, a good propane heater will heat up an engine in 20 minutes if it is 25F, so I would get one of those with a LiPo battery and an inverter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

December 24, 2022.KGVL, 50 miles north of ATL, 0700 temp was 4 degrees F.

My Aerothem Deuce was the bomb.

[generalaviationguru]

37 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

December 24, 2022.KGVL, 50 miles north of ATL, 0700 temp was 4 degrees F.

My Aerothem Deuce was the bomb.

The WORST freeze ever 

[GeeBee]

Yes, I lost the fuel pump on my diesel truck that morning due to fuel gelling. The Mooney nicely warm fired right up and completed her mission for a passenger pickup at KMKL. Really I would just put a Honda generator and an AeroTherm Alien Turbo in the trunk. By the time you finish preflight you would be warmed up. I like forced air heat better and the arrangement is very safe.

[generalaviationguru]

25 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Yes, I lost the fuel pump on my diesel truck that morning due to fuel gelling. The Mooney nicely warm fired right up and completed her mission for a passenger pickup at KMKL. Really I would just put a Honda generator and an AeroTherm Alien Turbo in the trunk. By the time you finish preflight you would be warmed up. I like forced air heat better and the arrangement is very safe.

Wow! Never heard of the alien turbo thing. That’s a bit out of my price range… I’m still on FO budget…..

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, generalaviationguru said:

We are in ATL area.  We purchased from gentleman in NYC.

Ah ok, 36 hours then . . lol

[bcg]

Yes, I lost the fuel pump on my diesel truck that morning due to fuel gelling. The Mooney nicely warm fired right up and completed her mission for a passenger pickup at KMKL. Really I would just put a Honda generator and an AeroTherm Alien Turbo in the trunk. By the time you finish preflight you would be warmed up. I like forced air heat better and the arrangement is very safe.

Holy crap, that's a $1,000 heater. You might need to sell your Mooney and buy a Bonanza.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Yetti]

In the things I don't worry about column.   Yesterday I picked up a chrome ratchet that had been lying in the sun in the grass and it burned my hand.   I had to use it to put the wheel back on the UTV.   So I had to go get a leather glove and could still feel it though the leather glove.

[Pinecone]

I don't quite get the Alien deal.  They blow hot air into one air inlet and suck it out of the other one.  That means the hot air just flows over the top of the engine,  None down through the cooling fins (or at least not a lot).  It seems it would be better to blow in into the under the engine and such it out above the engine.

[GeeBee]

13 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Reality check.   Yes the weather was awful that week of Christmas 2022. It was also snowing that week.   

You have an F.  GeeBee has a R with TKS (FIKI). He may fly but are you really going to be flying during the worst weather in Atlanta?  What is your mission?

Below are graphs of the high/low temps for the January 2023 and February 2023 following that historically bad weather.

It may have touched freezing a couple times but by noon it was 40-50 or even 60 degrees F.

As @Andrei Caldararu observed from a Wisconsin perspective this Atlanta weather doesn't even merit preheat.  It seems like a lot of overkill and wasted effort/expense.

When I fly to New Mexico in the winter, where it is colder, I am tied down overnights.  In 20+ years I have never preheated except one time.  That was the day it was covered in thick ice - they had to tow it into a heated hangar to melt it.

 

When it was 4 degrees and two years earlier 9 degrees it was crystal clear. Cloud cover is generally warmer than polar vortex weather here.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I don't quite get the Alien deal.  They blow hot air into one air inlet and suck it out of the other one.  That means the hot air just flows over the top of the engine,  None down through the cooling fins (or at least not a lot).  It seems it would be better to blow in into the under the engine and such it out above the engine.

It works, because there is a lot of hot air going in. It pressurizes the cowl. When I use mine and I just have a Duece I can feel the hot air coming out the exhaust stacks. 

[Hank]

14 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Reality check.   Yes the weather was awful that week of Christmas 2022. It was also snowing that week.   

You have an F.  GeeBee has a R with TKS (FIKI). He may fly but are you really going to be flying during the worst weather in Atlanta?  What is your mission?

Below are graphs of the high/low temps for the January 2023 and February 2023 following that historically bad weather.

It may have touched freezing a couple times but by noon it was 40-50 or even 60 degrees F.

As @Andrei Caldararu observed from a Wisconsin perspective this Atlanta weather doesn't even merit preheat.  It seems like a lot of overkill and wasted effort/expense.

When I fly to New Mexico in the winter, where it is colder, I am tied down overnights.  In 20+ years I have never preheated except one time.  That was the day it was covered in thick ice - they had to tow it into a heated hangar to melt it.

 

Yes, I flew my C on Christmas morning, well below freezing. I plugged in the preheat in the hangar and found things to do for an hour or so--cranked up just fine.

Coming home 3 days later, the FBO in the NC mountains plugged me in for about 90 minutes, and I had a heck of a time starting; the first 3 or 4 attempts, it didn't even fire. The next couple it coughed, then it sputtered and finally cranked. Made me think the cord wasn't plugged in at the other end. Never had trouble like that the 7 years I was based in Furthest West-by-Gawd, Virginny. 

Both days the weather was severs clear, just God's own freezer. TKS.would.not have done anything. Sometimes we have to fly . . . . That 2-hour flight, or a 6+ hour drive each way, the trip had to happen. So I flew. 

[Ragsf15e]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yes, I flew my C on Christmas morning, well below freezing. I plugged in the preheat in the hangar and found things to do for an hour or so--cranked up just fine.

Coming home 3 days later, the FBO in the NC mountains plugged me in for about 90 minutes, and I had a heck of a time starting; the first 3 or 4 attempts, it didn't even fire. The next couple it coughed, then it sputtered and finally cranked. Made me think the cord wasn't plugged in at the other end. Never had trouble like that the 7 years I was based in Furthest West-by-Gawd, Virginny. 

Both days the weather was severs clear, just God's own freezer. TKS.would.not have done anything. Sometimes we have to fly . . . . That 2-hour flight, or a 6+ hour drive each way, the trip had to happen. So I flew. 

Makes you almost wish you had FI for the cold starts, right?! 

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Makes you almost wish you had FI for the cold starts, right?! 

No, just an effective away-from-home electricity source . . . . .

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

It works, because there is a lot of hot air going in. It pressurizes the cowl. When I use mine and I just have a Duece I can feel the hot air coming out the exhaust stacks. 

Not sure how it pressurizes the cowl with it sucking the same amount of air it is blowing.

[GeeBee]

Because sucking is never as efficient as blowing...

Seriously by recirculation you reduce the delta on the incoming air resulting in faster and hotter heating.

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Because sucking is never as efficient as blowing...

Seriously by recirculation you reduce the delta on the incoming air resulting in faster and hotter heating.

I understand why you want to recirculate, but it seems very inefficient to blow most of the hot air over the top of the engine and not at the bottom up. 

I would put the supply hose into the bottom of the cowl and the suiction hose in the cowl opening, blocking the other opening.  This way the hot air would heat the oil faster and the cylinders more evenly.

[GeeBee]

There is nothing to say you can't put the hose in the bottom. A little touch to do on an Ovation or Acclaim though.