Well that fell through.

[Mcstealth]

Seller decided that he didn't want to bring the plane to Dugosh, offered to have his mechanics open up the plane for inspection in his hangar, but no borescope. Told me to fly Dugosh A/P's to him if I wanted to.

Oh well. I am sure the plane will sell to someone not interested in a full inspection.

Little sad as the bird clicked a lot of boxes.

Life goes on.

David

 

[Justin Schmidt]

Sooner or later you will find that it was for the best...could be a lot wrong with it, especially if they aren't allowing a borescope.

Had that experience...seems a lot of these hanger and tie down queens are trying to sell in the hot market to some unsuspected person.

[A64Pilot]

I think it not uncommon for someone to not fly their airplane to an unknown maintenance facility, I wouldn’t out of the blue, maybe after you travelled to see the airplane, left a deposit and agreed to pay the costs of me flying the airplane, then I might. There are a lot of flakes out there and until I knew you weren’t one I’m not spending my time and money on a flake.

In my opinion that’s more common than not, I don’t think I’d let some unknown entity tear my airplane apart out of my sight and control. If you have been around you have seen the nightmare of maintenance induced problems.

Buy a borescope, if your going to be an aircraft owner that does preventative maintenance a borescope is like a set of good torque wrenches, your going to need one anyway as well as safety wire etc.

Again an opinion but I’d expect your path forward is to go see an airplane and based on your initial review decide if it needs to go further or not, if you feel that you have a good prospect expect to bring your own A&P after putting down a deposit to hold the aircraft for an agreed upon time frame, then travel to the airplane, do the inspection and if it’s good complete the transaction and bring it home.

Ideally you want to bring the person who will maintain it from this day forward.

I admit that I’m not used to the big shops in the big cities that are unlikely to provide this kind of service.

[1980Mooney]

55 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

Seller decided that he didn't want to bring the plane to Dugosh, offered to have his mechanics open up the plane for inspection in his hangar, but no borescope. Told me to fly Dugosh A/P's to him if I wanted to.

Oh well. I am sure the plane will sell to someone not interested in a full inspection.

Little sad as the bird clicked a lot of boxes.

Life goes on.

David

Just curious - how far is the prospective plane from Kerrville? - How long of a trip?

The day I decide to sell, I will limit how far I will fly it for a prebuy.  I would also prefer the prebuy to be at my field.  I agree with @A64Pilot comments.

[rickseeman]

When I sell my airplane they can come and look at it, he can go through all the logs, we can fly it and he can check out all the systems in flight. Then we can land and he can remove whatever panels he so desires and inspect. We can do a compression test and he can borescope anything he wants. If he can't figure out if it's a good one by then maybe he needs to go somewhere else and buy an airplane.....

[ta2too]

1 hour ago, Mcstealth said:

Seller decided that he didn't want to bring the plane to Dugosh, offered to have his mechanics open up the plane for inspection in his hangar, but no borescope. Told me to fly Dugosh A/P's to him if I wanted to.

Oh well. I am sure the plane will sell to someone not interested in a full inspection.

Little sad as the bird clicked a lot of boxes.

Life goes on.

David

 

No borescope? Must have just had one. This is the guy that sells you a used car and won't let you open the hood.

Don't walk away - RUN

[EricJ]

49 minutes ago, ta2too said:

No borescope? Must have just had one. This is the guy that sells you a used car and won't let you open the hood.

Don't walk away - RUN

Borescopes are cheap enough these days you can bring your own or borrow one.   If they were really not allowing a borescope inspection, that's definitely a red flag.   You have to take the plugs out to do compression tests, anyway, so there shouldn't be any barrier to doing a borescope inspection at the same time.

I had a buddy wind up AOG in CA last year and in short order we threw together enough stuff to throw in my airplane to take along to do compression and borescope tests on the ramp.   We even had our own power with a battery box that had enough oomf to run my little compressor for the compression checks.   It shouldn't be that hard to do an reasonable inspection without moving the airplane if the seller refuses.

[RoundTwo]

There was a very popular 90 J near Nashville that had several deals implode because they refused to let the plane leave the field. It finally sold. 

[Mcstealth]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Just curious - how far is the prospective plane from Kerrville? - How long of a trip?

The day I decide to sell, I will limit how far I will fly it for a prebuy.  I would also prefer the prebuy to be at my field.  I agree with @A64Pilot comments.

Six hour drive, one hour flight. 

I understand 64's logic, but I understand mine also. Dugosh has all the lists of SB's and such. The office goes thru the logs to find what has and hasn't been complied with. Dugosh is what, America's oldest MSC? They know where and how to find corrosion.

We had a time set and they missed it by a week saying their annual wasn’t yet signed off. Then they got cold feet when Dugosh couldn't immediately put us in. 

[Mcstealth]

Yes I have money in hand but didn’t think to put a deposit in their hands. In hindsight, I should have I guess. 

I'm not saying I couldn't do an "inspection", I wanted an experienced AP do it. No I didn't ask if a Dugosh AP would go to the plane. Didn't think I would need to. 

Live and learn. 

[A64Pilot]

What I’m saying is travel yourself to there, if you have any kind of mechanical abilities and or sense of what logbooks look like you can tell a pig from a good airplane, only thing I’d caution you against is not to put too much into a paint job and interior etc and depending on your budget the panel, it’s the bones if you will your concerned with.

Once you find one that you consider worth spending some money on to find out if it’s a keeper or not, then sit down with the owner and talk about what it would take for them to take the airplane where you want or whatever, and if he understands that your willing to put a considerable deposit on the line (money in escrow, don’t write them a check).

Four hour drive or one hour flight is in your back yard, I’ve travelled many States just to look, sometimes don’t even get within 50 ft and I know I’ve wasted a trip.

Once you sell one you’ll understand, most come in and honestly can’t afford the airplane and don’t have any real interest in buying, but want a free ride and drag you through all kinds of concessions etc. I think it’s a hobby or something, maybe let’s them for awhile love the dream of being an aircraft owner, who know what but there are a lot of them out there.

[DCarlton]

I'm trying to think of any ADs or SBs on Mooney's that I would consider deal breakers if not complied with.  Other than possibly some engine related ADs (?), are there any airframe ADs or SBs that are that costly or difficult to remedy?  I can't think of any.  And it seems like you could determine status fairly well by just looking at logs.  Why am I missing? 

[Mcstealth]

@A64Pilot

Yes I did make the drive. I did not let the cruddy home job, runs, drips, owner sprayed paint deter me. I negotiated a time to bring to Dugosh. One owner was okay with it, the other wasn't. These folks are warbird people and do their own work. I understand the reluctance. We agreed on the time and that I was paying and then they did the 180 on me. I guess I just got my feelings hurt. I can still make the drive again but at this point, I am not as trusting. 

[Mcstealth]

15 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I'm trying to think of any ADs or SBs on Mooney's that I would consider deal breakers if not complied with.  Other than possibly some engine related ADs (?), are there any airframe ADs or SBs that are that costly or difficult to remedy?  I can't think of any.  And it seems like you could determine status fairly well by just looking at logs.  Why am I missing? 

Maybe not one,  but there are several to be researched and verified. The owner himself doesn’t know if they are complete. 

Just thinking out loud. 

[DonMuncy]

Better luck on your next one David.

[A64Pilot]

Then this one may not be the one, keep looking.

I think it’s not a bad time to buy myself, we are considering a small motor home, and their prices have dropped drastically over the last year or so, how much lower I’m not sure, depends on how much worse the economy gets, I think airplanes and motor homes sales wise compare.

I think though with our realistic use, it would make more sense for us to just rent one, so I’m waffling, besides I’m not sure one would fit in my hangar.

Although they are responsible I don’t think the average owner in truth knows very much about AD’s much less SB’s etc. Most know where the oil goes and not much more.

In my opinion your only real concern is corrosion and engine / prop and in truth cylinders aren’t a deal breaker to me, sure they figure into offering price but I wouldn’t walk if everything else was good.

Unless you have a very large budget your not going to find the perfect airplane, your looking to make sure the warts aren’t terminal or hugely expensive, original interior may not be your dream, but I’ve not seen one ground an airplane and how much it costs to replace is well known, and this is something you can do yourself and save huge amounts of money.

I bought mine with its original interior and poor quality paint job, I wish it had been original paint though, an older airplane with decent original paint has not been kept outside. 40 years of sitting outside and the paint is way beyond gone.

‘But It had a Gann Performance overhaul with about 350 hours on it, prop 350 since overhaul and all accessories new with engine overhaul, Mag overhauled. 2200 on airframe, first overhaul.

Edited June 28, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Aerodon]

Reminds me of the flying school that had a completion for students to find the 'pre arranged' defects during a preflight.  Someone always found a few more, sometimes grounding the aircraft for weeks.

I would be reluctant to fly my plane somewhere to do a PPI. Something could come up that could ground the airplane away from home.  At least if it comes up at home I can deal with it locally.

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

I would be reluctant to fly my plane somewhere to do a PPI. Something could come up that could ground the airplane away from home.  At least if it comes up at home I can deal with it locally.

A mechanic can't ground your airplane, so if it was fit to fly there, it ought to be fit to fly back unless they break something, which is something I'd worry about more.

I have no plans to sell my airplane, but if/when I do, this will be where I may have a problem.   It is totally fair for somebody to want an independent inspector to evaluate the airplane, but given experiences (and numerous threads here), it is demonstrably highly risky to let somebody you don't know touch your airplane.   I'd want to be there looking over their shoulder the whole time, which wouldn't be a good thing for an independent inspection.    This may be my forever airplane just because of this. 

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, Mcstealth said:

@A64Pilot

Yes I did make the drive. I did not let the cruddy home job, runs, drips, owner sprayed paint deter me. I negotiated a time to bring to Dugosh. One owner was okay with it, the other wasn't. These folks are warbird people and do their own work. I understand the reluctance. We agreed on the time and that I was paying and then they did the 180 on me. I guess I just got my feelings hurt. I can still make the drive again but at this point, I am not as trusting. 

Everything in aviation is a compromise …a trade off.. You may want perfect (ie a Dougosh ppi) but you may never get it on the best plane at the best value for sale. You mentioned 2 owners that do their own work - even more complexity. 
 

Maybe the stars will align for you and maybe they won’t. You are the one that has to decide what is important. Maybe you find a lesser plane at a higher price that will go to Dugosh. If that makes you sleep at night then that’s perfect. 

[GeeBee]

You have to put money up if you want them to deliver it to a shop. A shop 1 hour away is not unreasonable. If they won't do that after offering to put money in escrow, walk away.

[McMooney]

I can understand the seller, mechanics and planes = trouble, esp if you're taking her apart to any extent.  When I sell birdy, i'll let you bring your guy to the hangar or even use a shop on field but she's not flying anywhere till someone's paid 

[wombat]

A pre-buy is not an inspection, and an A&P isn't a cop.

An A&P might say "Hey, did you notice that your propeller is home-made, broken, and there is no paperwork for it?   You might want to do something about that before flying again." And you can smile and wave, then fly off into the distance.    Butttt......   If that's the case, and you EVER have an accident, you'll have a little more explaining to do.   So maybe just don't put your broken home-made prop on your Mooney.

But not everybody really understands how the maintenance documentation works and they might be worried about their plane being grounded.  Particularly if they are less than stellar at making sure all of the paperwork and work on the aircraft are in order.

 

If the sellers didn't want to let their plane get flown (at your expense) somewhere else, well, that's their choice.   And they reduced their pool of potential buyers, possibly reducing the sales price of the plane.  But that's what they get to do; they own the plane!

If you don't want to buy it without getting it flown (at your expense) somewhere else, well, that's your choice.   And you have a reduced pool of potential aircraft, possibly missing a deal on a plane.  But that's what you get to choose, you have the money!

 

 

[rickseeman]

39 minutes ago, EricJ said:

A mechanic can't ground your airplane

Well, maybe you don't go to some big shops. You would be amazed at what goes on out there.

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

Well, maybe you don't go to some big shops. You would be amazed at what goes on out there.

I'm aware, sadly.   What I should have said was, "A mechanic has no legal authority to ground your airplane." 

 

[rickseeman]

Legality means nothing. He said this plane ain't leaving here unless you give me $2,500 for this Beech part because the fuel flow gauge on your Bonanza didn't work when we tried it (it was intermittent) and it has to work to be legal because it's a Part 23 airplane. We might be liable if something happened. This crap goes on everyday.