Would I be happy with a later 'E model? (68-70)

[BloodRedSkies]

I am on the hunt for a Mooney(or a Comanche 250/260). I have looked mostly at J & K because that's what my previous experience is in(1150 in the K and about 50hrs in J). I have noticed some nice E & F models (68 and later no Johnson bar) that are more regularly flown with better avionics and a lot of the mods like 201 windshield etc.

What quirks do the short bodies have?

How is the backseat room for the occasional 3 or 4th pax(I'm 6'3 but long torso)? In the K there is almost a foot behind me when I'm at the controls. 

How is the ECS system I live in a cold climate? 

What are gotchyas and remedies for the the A1A vs the A3B6? 

For those who have flown both who would take a tip top modded E/F over a stripped J? 

The mission is myself and my GF and our dogs on trips less than 600nm with the occasional 800+nm trek. 

[Ragsf15e]

I like my F, but I only have a few hours in a J to compare.  The E/F are pretty simple, so that’s a maintenance bonus.  However, they are older and possibly have more chance of corrosion, so a good prebuy is really important.  The F has the same backseat room as the J/K, but the E is barely suitable for smaller adults.  If you have 3 people, the backseat passenger can sit sort of sideways.  
There really aren’t any weird handling issues with either and they have good useful load.  Es have less fuel (I think 52gal) vs 64 for Fs.

No issues with the IO-360A1A.  It has two independent mags, so that can allow for an EI.

Youll see 140-150kts cruise at 6000-10000’ at 10-11 gph.  Maybe 140 if you want to use lean of peak at 9 gph.

Spare parts are available but a few specific ones are harder to get. That’s the same for other mooney models.  Mooney is producing parts but some are long time.

[Hank]

I have a C, same as the E but with a carbed engine. I occasionally fly with 3 or 4 people, and rarely have complaints from backseaters because they are always glad to ride along.

The difference between short- and mid-bodies is 10", evenly split between extra backseat legroom and baggage space. So you'll have less room to put stuff. But even so, traveling with mynwife it seems that I run out of space well before weight.

This was headed to see family at Christmas. Pretty full!

[kortopates]

With all that time in a K are you sure you want to go back to NA? I would not.
I’d think if your willing to go NA that you’d want to wait for a nice J. Or remembering the challenges of a fixed or manual wastegate, go for a 252/Encore. After all this should be a long term commitment.
Lastly, an F will be much more familiar than a E.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pinecone]

For numbers, my 252/Encore cruises at 175 KTAS in the mid teens on 10.3 GPH.

With the Monroy tanks, I have over 100 gallons of fuel, so can go around 9 hours with reserve or tanker fuel when it is cheap.

If you are not familiar, the 252 is what the 231 should have been with factory intercooler and auto waste gate.  The Encore is the restart version that got a few changes and a 230 pound GW increase.  The difference is the engine (go from -MB to -SM) and a couple of factory drawings (dual puck brakes, different balance weights).  Do the changes, and you now have the extra GW.  My plane is so converted and has an 1119 UL.

[BloodRedSkies]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

For numbers, my 252/Encore cruises at 175 KTAS in the mid teens on 10.3 GPH.

With the Monroy tanks, I have over 100 gallons of fuel, so can go around 9 hours with reserve or tanker fuel when it is cheap.

If you are not familiar, the 252 is what the 231 should have been with factory intercooler and auto waste gate.  The Encore is the restart version that got a few changes and a 230 pound GW increase.  The difference is the engine (go from -MB to -SM) and a couple of factory drawings (dual puck brakes, different balance weights).  Do the changes, and you now have the extra GW.  My plane is so converted and has an 1119 UL.

The 231 was my Dad's so I got to fly it when I wanted to(and I sure did!), but that was about 25 years ago. I've looked at updated K's and I'm not sacred of the beast as long as it's intercooled and Merlin'd. However it's probably a lot more airplane than I need for the mission I  described. Trust me I love the lope of the tsio 360! Had I known prices were going to do this after covid I would have bought 2 in 2019

The J's imo are crazy over priced. Even for ones that haven't flown much and then you get into the issue of overhead cam corrosion issues. A lot of '77s out there which are an F with a different cowl honestly. For real long distance trips we can just go when we want on standby(CA @ a major here). It seems a modded vintage will be 90% of a 201 without the premium price. I'm mostly curious is the short bodies really handle any different? 

[Ragsf15e]

34 minutes ago, BloodRedSkies said:

The 231 was my Dad's so I got to fly it when I wanted to(and I sure did!), but that was about 25 years ago. I've looked at updated K's and I'm not sacred of the beast as long as it's intercooled and Merlin'd. However it's probably a lot more airplane than I need for the mission I  described. Trust me I love the lope of the tsio 360! Had I known prices were going to do this after covid I would have bought 2 in 2019

The J's imo are crazy over priced. Even for ones that haven't flown much and then you get into the issue of overhead cam corrosion issues. A lot of '77s out there which are an F with a different cowl honestly. For real long distance trips we can just go when we want on standby(CA @ a major here). It seems a modded vintage will be 90% of a 201 without the premium price. I'm mostly curious is the short bodies really handle any different? 

Imo, the short bodies are perfect for 2 people traveling because they have the same front seat room as all the others.  They might even be a smidge lighter/faster?  I travel routinely with my wife and 2 kids, so I want the backseat leg room, but if it was just 2 of us, an E would be just fine.  Well, actually, I do like the 64 gallon tanks on the F.  We do a 525nm trip to grandmas that would be difficult with an hour reserve in a short body since they have less fuel.  I usually try to depart with 55gallons on that trip depending on winds, although it can be done with less gas if you go high and or lean of peak.

[pirate]

I’ve flown both short and long bodies, to me short is a bit more sporty / fun. 

[Shadrach]

Any of the 4 place Mooneys fit your mission. Block times on trips under 600 nautical miles are not going to be drastically different.  Find a plane that has the best combination of equipment/value and have a thorough prebuy performed.  If you have no use for the oxygen altitudes, you really have no use for a turbo. It will simply cost more to maintain and provide you almost nothing in the way of additional performance until you get above 8k. I took off behind a beautiful K model last Wednesday. I thought my eyes were deceiving me as he grew in the windshield. Then I got a collision alert from the tower about 30 secs later. It was a hot day, his plane is heavier, probably had the power pulled back for temps. Nevertheless, I’m sure he didn’t like hearing that the stock, guppy mouth F that he blocked from making a VFR departure while he awaited his IFR clearance was now flying right up his backside. That being said, I think the k model, particularly the Encore probably yielded about the best combination of performance, payload and efficiency of any GA single ever made, but if you don’t need one, you don’t need one.

[mooniac15u]

I owned a (converted) M20D for 9 years and now I've owned my M20J for the same length of time.  The J is slightly more pitch stable than the D but I never really found the D to be unstable.  It's just a difference I noticed when I upgraded.  The difference in rear seat leg room is meaningful.  I'm 6'5" and there was essentially no room behind me in the D.  My wife (5'4") rides comfortably behind me in the J.  The rear seat of the D was ok when the kids were in little and in car seats but they quickly ran out of room as they grew.

The rear bench seats in the two planes are also slightly different.  The angle between the seat and the seatback changed.  In the D the angle was more acute and less comfortable.  I no longer get complaints about the comfort of the back seat.

[Shadrach]

On 4/27/2023 at 2:46 PM, BloodRedSkies said:

I'm mostly curious is the short bodies really handle any different? 

In flight handling is the pretty much the same. Weight is the single biggest factor affecting handling at pattern speeds. The difference in empty weight between the lightest C and the heaviest K is likely in excess of 400lbs. So yes, speeds will be different as will feel.

[gmonnig]

The E is a little hot rod! Fun to fly, great handling and a great two seater (with lots of bags/camping gear). Three is ok and four adults, never gonna happen. If you think you'll need to load four adults, buy a Comanche 250/260. I miss my 250 because it could take 4adults and enough fuel for at least 4hrs. My E only has 900lb useful so about 350lbs less than my 250 had. They say the E is a great retirement plane, and I agree 100%. Now that we are empty nesters(not retired), I thought it'd be a perfect plane but Something weird happened. Rather than taking family trips, we find ourselves wanting to take other couples along. 

[McMooney]

My E is nice, if it was turbonormalized i'd want for nothing.  

So the thing about space in the E, it's unflyable by anyone under prob 7 feet with the seats all the way to the rear.  when in position, grown adults fit behind me just fine.  Wanna complain get out and walk.  way more room than coach aircraft and the rear seats recline, win win.

you can fly like you're on fire or pull it back and burn less gass than a 172.   I believe i had her at  something like 5 gallons.hr one day, under 6 anyway. 

in the air, she's honest and def not finicky, actually feels sport car like, almost firm.

I just wish they came with 64 gallon tanks instead of the 52 but taking her to kggg to sort that issue next year.

 

You'll love her,  the only real upgrade from an E is K+

[Echo]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Any of the 4 place Mooneys fit your mission. Block times on trips under 600 nautical miles are not going to be drastically different.  Find a plane that has the best combination of equipment/value and have a thorough prebuy performed.  If you have no use for the oxygen altitudes, you really have no use for a turbo. It will simply cost more to maintain and provide you almost nothing in the way of additional performance until you get above 8k. I took off behind a beautiful K model last Wednesday. I thought my eyes were deceiving me as he grew in the windshield. Then I got a collision alert from the tower about 30 secs later. It was a hot day, his plane is heavier, probably had the power pulled back for temps. Nevertheless, I’m sure he didn’t like hearing that the stock, guppy mouth F that he blocked from making a VFR departure while he awaited his IFR clearance was now flying right up his backside. That being said, I think the k model, particularly the Encore probably yielded about the best combination of performance, payload and efficiency of any GA single ever made, but if you don’t need one, you don’t need one.

I am going to say a Missile conversion is the best. I routinely saw 180 knots on 12-13GPH at 10k. Just a wonderful efficient Time Machine. 

[Echo]

1111 useful load…

[Hank]

3 hours ago, McMooney said:

you can fly like you're on fire or pull it back and burn less gass than a 172.   I believe i had her at  something like 5 gallons.hr one day, under 6 anyway. 

in the air, she's honest and def not finicky, actually feels sport car like, almost firm.

I just wish they came with 64 gallon tanks instead of the 52 

That's the downside of your heavy fuel injection system. My C cruises easily at 145 KTAS, on 8.5-9 gph depending on altitude and conditions; on any given flight, I'm ~30% less flight time and 10% less fuel than the 172s my friends fly.

Life is good. Life with a Mooney I better!

[Fly Boomer]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:22 PM, Hank said:

Life is good. Life with a Mooney I better!

That made me laugh.  Thanks.

[Shadrach]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:05 PM, Echo said:

I am going to say a Missile conversion is the best. I routinely saw 180 knots on 12-13GPH at 10k. Just a wonderful efficient Time Machine. 

It’s a fine airplane that I am sure will do 180kts and also burn 12-13gph. I’m skeptical tat it will do both at the same time.

[Echo]

18 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It’s a fine airplane that I am sure will do 180kts and also burn 12-13gph. I’m skeptical tat it will do both at the same time.

I have photos Ross.  I will PM you.  :)

[Echo]

Always good to trust but verify.  Lol   170-175 at 10k is more like it for that burn.  Must of had benevolent winds in pics 

[Ragsf15e]

Uh, here comes the Mooney airspeed arguments… no, mine is even faster!

[Shadrach]

Negative. The number in question was the fuel burn! 

[rickseeman]

An E would work, but those flights with more people kinda sounds more like an F. You said the J's seem overpriced. It's been that way for at least 40 years that I know of. It's kinda like buying a used Honda Accord. When you have a walk-on-water reputation the price is gonna be high. But for good reason. 

[Shadrach]

Potentially unpopular and biased opinion. Find a nice early F that’s been well cared for and get on with your flying.  It’s about the best value of any 4 cyl, 4 place single.

Pros over J:

Better instrument access

no dual mag issues

Lighter empty weight

better useful load

no “no back spring” issue for manual gear birds.

65-70% of the cost of a J.

Cons:

Looks less modern

“It’s still just an F” (I don’t really care but for some J owners this is a real issue)

F is a few knots slower.

Pros over E:

Higher MGW means better useful load

More leg room making for a comfortable 4 place cabin

bigger fuel tanks

Larger baggage area

Cons:

some sa it’s less sporty, though I can’t tell the difference. Both Es I’ve flown were less than 20lbs lighter than my F.

F more expensive than an E.

 

Bottom line.

A nice F will do >95% of a what a J will do in terms of speed and will likely have better useful load and will cost significantly less to buy.

A nice F will do >95% of a what an E will do in terms of speed and will have more range, better useful load and far more usable cabin for four passengers. It will cost a small premium over an E.

 

 

[glbtrottr]

One of these days I’ll be putting my E model for sale…2000 ttaf and 645 sfrm…with shiny new paint of choice for the new owner.