M20M TLS as first plane , family travel plane , weight and balance

[donkaye]

9 hours ago, Raffi said:

Hi there,

I am a helicopter pilot , R44 logged about 400 hours and doing a transition to fixed wing for the moment. I am looking for a plane to travel with my family. Bonanza A36 would be ok, but they are too expensive in my opinion. I looked at a F33 bonanza , turns out that 2 adults , 2 kids and some luggage will ground you.. I want speed , a typical trip would be 450 nautical miles , from Belgium to Italy, yes there are some mountains... Would the M20M TLS do the job ( weights are 200 , 120 and the kids 90 + 90 pounds and some luggage.. ). I would like to have TKS too , weather isn't always or almost never fine here.  Is it easy to fly? How about spare parts? Thanks for helping me out !

I've attached a weight and balance from your information.   It shows you could only fill with 64 gallons of fuel and no TKS.  You're asking too much from a 4 place "fast" airplane.  The Bravo is a perfect 2 place airplane with full fuel and full 120 pounds of baggage.  Add people in the back and you cut down on the range.  With an hour's reserve of 20 gallons you have 44 gallons for travel.  At 75% power and burn rate of 18 gallons/hour, that's 2.4 hour range.  At 17,000 feet TAS is approximate 195 knots.  In no wind that means 2.4 X 195 = 468 nm range. I've had my Bravo for nearly 31 years and love it.

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

[mention=8122]LANCECASPER[/mention]
Lance, help... 
 

The only Mooney that I owned with TKS was an Encore. Here’s the weight and balance from that airplane. Since it shows 80 lbs. that must be with TKS fluid.





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[Raffi]

Thank you alle very much , I appreciate your help ! 

I'll do the match and see what comes out... You all seem to be very happy with your planes , I will take that in consideration too !

[Raffi]

Is there any kit available to increase the payload or to lighten the plane? Changing avionics ? 

[Niko182]

I'm with @larryb on this one. If you regularly fly 4 people, you want a 6 seat plane. A TAT TN'd A36 will give you the same performance if not better as the bravo with more useful load and range. However you can't get FIKI with the tip tanks on the 36.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Niko182

[Guest]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:06 PM, larryb said:

For 4 people on a regular basis you need a 6 seat airplane.

Or a Comanche 400.  Mine has just under a 1500 lbs useful load.

[Niko182]

54 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Or a Comanche 400.  Mine has just under a 1500 lbs useful load.

I guess a baron also handles 4 people pretty well.

 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I guess a baron also handles 4 people pretty well.

 

They do as well, but not every wants a twin.  There are no airframes that have or can do it all, most are payload challenged.

[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Or a Comanche 400.  Mine has just under a 1500 lbs useful load.

How many comanche 400 are there in the wild? I only know of yours and ironically my neighbor down the street. He has extended tanks but it was experimental class with them so they closed them off to bring it back to certified.  While it’s weird to hear the engine firing all 8 cylinders at 1000rpms as it sounds the same as a 4 cylinder at 2000rpm it is much smoother at idle than any other piston airplane ive been in. I would assume a P51 would be smoother still with 12 cylinders. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

How many comanche 400 are there in the wild? I only know of yours and ironically my neighbor down the street. He has extended tanks but it was experimental class with them so they closed them off to bring it back to certified.  While it’s weird to hear the engine firing all 8 cylinders at 1000rpms as it sounds the same as a 4 cylinder at 2000rpm it is much smoother at idle than any other piston airplane ive been in. I would assume a P51 would be smoother still with 12 cylinders. 

There may well be more P-51’s left and 400’s.  There certainly are more 195’s etc.  Piper only built 148 400’s of the 5000 odd Comanches.

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, Raffi said:

Is there any kit available to increase the payload or to lighten the plane? Changing avionics ? 

There are no GW increase STC’s. 
You can throw a lot of money at avionics that might improve UL a few lbs. And maybe get rid of the vacuum system that saves about 20 lbs. A new composite prop will save a few lbs. But the gains are quite marginal compared to the money spent - and they won’t add the weight of a person. The money may be better spent on a more capable plane. 

[exM20K]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:53 AM, LANCECASPER said:

The only Mooney that I owned with TKS was an Encore. Here’s the weight and balance from that airplane. Since it shows 80 lbs. that must be with TKS fluid.





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Mine has 0 fluid for the W&B.  IIRC, there are two lines in the equipment list or W&B, one empty and one full.  
That entry in your picture says “reweighed” so who knows? I’d guess it was weighed empty but had the usual weight gain over time.

 

re 252-> encore FIKI… The 252 is FIKI eligible, so it’s not obvious why one with the encore conversion wouldn’t be.

-dan

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, exM20K said:

Mine has 0 fluid for the W&B.  IIRC, there are two lines in the equipment list or W&B, one empty and one full.  
That entry in your picture says “reweighed” so who knows? I’d guess it was weighed empty but had the usual weight gain over time.

 

re 252-> encore FIKI… The 252 is FIKI eligible, so it’s not obvious why one with the encore conversion wouldn’t be.

-dan

Yes by the time of the Acclaim the POH had all of the possible options in the weight and balance where they could just check the boxes applicable. It's good that they showed the two different figures for empty and full.

Back in '97 when my Encore (serial number 12) was made the Mooney POH was much less sophisticated. They typed or wrote in all of the options on that aircraft.

It came out of Mooney officially on 10/24/97 as a 252 and then a few weeks later on 11/10/97 once the FAA approved the gross weight increase it became an "Encore" when they converted the engine to an -SB from an -, changed out the MP gauge, prop governor and counterbalance weights on the elevators and ailerons.

The Mooney factory installed the FIKI TKS in March of '99 as soon as it was approved for the K model (252, as long as it has two alternators and all Encores, which all have two alternators).

[Ragsf15e]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:22 PM, M20Doc said:

Or a Comanche 400.  Mine has just under a 1500 lbs useful load.

1500 useful load, but need to use 1000 of that for fuel to feed that beast! 

[Will.iam]

16 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

1500 useful load, but need to use 1000 of that for fuel to feed that beast! 

Yea no joke, at 39gph on takeoff, as impressive as the acceleration was I couldn’t get past that wallet depleting fuel flow.