Engine Monitor Preference

[ArrowBerry]

We're looking into a primary engine monitor for our 1967 E, to amalgamate all of our engine and fuel indications into one spot. We like the Garmin GI275, and the CGR-30 from EI as they're both roughly in the same price range and are the same size as a standard round gauge. What are some experiences with either? Things you like or don't like? Other options aside from the two?

Also, what was your ordering experience? Do the new probes and sensors come with it for the install or do you have to source it all separately? Did you buy it from Spruce or somewhere else?

Many thanks! 

 

[kortopates]

I believe it would take both a CGR-30C and 30P to get everything you get in the Garmin EIS or an EDM-9xx and then you would have two different data files which is huge negative IMO. Garmin EIS has many integration enhancements as well and the smaller footprint than the EDM’s if that’s what you want.


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[TheAv8r]

The question really centers around what kind of panel surgery you want to do. If you want something that fits in existing instrument holes and you don't have to do much with the panel, the GI-275 EIS / CGR-30P are good options as is the EDM 900 (though it does require a bit more maneuvering). I have an EDM 930 in my E model and I love it, everything is very well laid out, organized and easy to read.

Usually all probes and sensors come with the install. My JPI 930 took 4 months to get from JPI FWIW, likely the same with the 900.

 

[oregon87]

It is worth noting that we are currently offering a $300 rebate on CGR-30P and an $800.00 rebate on CGR-30-Combo (30P & 30C) packages ordered before 01/31/2023.

 

Electronics International Jan 2023 Rebate

[ArrowBerry]

Thanks for the replies. I'm more looking for a smaller panel footprint than the JPI options, although no question they are slick. The price tag on those is also a bit more of a shocker! This is from EI's website, I've highlighted in red the items we would need or care about. The additional items above the limit of five in the second set is what requires the second unit, I suppose. And the Garmin 275 unit is about to do all of that in one instrument?

Included: RPM, EGT/CHT Bar Graph, Fuel Remaining, Tach Time, Local Time, Fuel Used, GPS/Fuel Flow Data, External Caution & Warning, and Data Recording.

Included (Pick 5): Manifold Pressure, Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, Fuel Flow, Fuel Pressure, Right Fuel Level, Left Fuel Level, Aux Fuel Level, TIT, Carbon Monoxide Detector (add $595), VAC, Volts.

[oregon87]

25 minutes ago, ArrowBerry said:

Thanks for the replies. I'm more looking for a smaller panel footprint than the JPI options, although no question they are slick. The price tag on those is also a bit more of a shocker! This is from EI's website, I've highlighted in red the items we would need or care about. The additional items above the limit of five in the second set is what requires the second unit, I suppose. And the Garmin 275 unit is about to do all of that in one instrument?

Included: RPM, EGT/CHT Bar Graph, Fuel Remaining, Tach Time, Local Time, Fuel Used, GPS/Fuel Flow Data, External Caution & Warning, and Data Recording.

Included (Pick 5): Manifold Pressure, Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, Fuel Flow, Fuel Pressure, Right Fuel Level, Left Fuel Level, Aux Fuel Level, TIT, Carbon Monoxide Detector (add $595), VAC, Volts.

You would need the CGR-30-Combo in order to monitor those functions.  RPM, EGT and CHT are always included on the CGR-30P.  From there, five additional primary and five non-primary functions can be selected.  Primary functions are defined as those that are required by the manufacturer and include limits/redlines.  Examples of primary functions are RPM, oil temperature, oil pressure and fuel pressure.  Examples of "oddball" primary function without limits would be manifold pressure in naturally aspirated aircraft and fuel level as it is common for those function not to have limits specified.  An example of a non-primary function but can replace an existing gauge is amps as most amp gauges do not have limits.

 

From what you've selected, the primary functions would be as follows:  1. Manifold Pressure 2. Oil Pressure 3. Oil Temperature 4. Fuel Pressure 5. Right Fuel Level 6. Left Fuel Level 7. Aux Fuel Level 8. TIT (if TIT limits are specified in the POH or STC).

As I understand what can be primary vs. non-primary is very confusing, I am happy to answer any questions.  

[ArrowBerry]

Thank you for the clarification on that. It does seem confusing, but I'm slowly wrapping my head around the whole thing! It seems like the only option for a single unit of that size to display everything is the Garmin. 

[oregon87]

If you are intending to remove both a RPM gauge and manifold pressure gauge and those gauges are 3-1/8", the CGR-30-Combo would install in those two holes and offer quite a bit of screen real estate to monitor other functions such as battery and alternator amps.  We also offer status annuncitors which can be configured to indicate if a switch is turn on or off.  For example, landing lights, pitot heat, strobes, beacon, fuel pump, etc.  Just food for thought.  

[ArrowBerry]

Browsing on Aircraft Spruce, this looks like the kit for the 275 that would apply to a Mooney application? That includes your RPM, MP, EGT, CHT, oil temperature, oil pressure, and fuel flow probes and sensors. Aside from the GEA24 which comes with the unit itself, is there anything else you need to order for the installation? Does it work with the original fuel level senders or do those need to be upgraded as well?

 

[Igor_U]

I am not familiar with GI 275 as I installed engine monitor before Garmin came on market.

While Twin CGR30 might be ultimate solution, I went with only one, CGR-30P and additional Aerospace Logic FL202 for Fuel levels. This gave me all the needed functions on my 67F.  FL202 is 2.25" diameter unit so an adaptor plate to mount into 3 1/8" hole is needed but it looks very slick, and I am very happy with this combo. Advantage is you can keep the original RH panel (I didn't) since you are removing original RPM and MP/Fuel pres. instrument.

 

[MikeOH]

I've been very happy with my Insight G3: http://www.insightavionics.com/bestg3.htm

 

[hammdo]

Insight is pretty hard to beat:

 

[Ragsf15e]

On 1/5/2023 at 4:10 PM, ArrowBerry said:

Thank you for the clarification on that. It does seem confusing, but I'm slowly wrapping my head around the whole thing! It seems like the only option for a single unit of that size to display everything is the Garmin. 

One nice thing is EI’s support… you have @oregon87 here helping you on this thread.  He’s from EI.  Garmin support isn’t around here much.  I have a jpi and their support is spotty.

[vik]

Insight is really nice. It is certified as primary for CHT/EGT, so you can remove the factory ones. It can not replace all other instruments though, but might be a good choice if that is OK with you.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, vik said:

Insight is really nice. It is certified as primary for CHT/EGT, so you can remove the factory ones. It can not replace all other instruments though, but might be a good choice if that is OK with you.

And it’s made in Canada!

[jamesm]

Shameless plug for EI CGR 30C/P engine monitor. The CGR monitor both magnetos and tells which mag is grounded out. Some may say it's not that big of a deal. I would disagree. I have SureFly electronic ignition module and a keyless ignition switch. That thing runs so smooth that it would be so easy to take off on one magneto. So having a annunciator indicating which mag is grounded is essential. I am not certain if JPI or Garmin does or does not. I know insight does not.  Just my opinion. James '67C

[carusoam]

Things to know…

1) EI has the best support of all the engine monitor companies…

2) The pair of EI round dials are in many modernized Mooneys…

3) JPI has the most installations of the modern engine monitors… they had the JPI900 out early on….

4) For big monitors for easy reading… EI and JPI are great… tie breaker goes to the good service….   

5) Big G is relatively new to the engine monitor field… but as a data recorder… it is incredibly powerful….

6) There are many Insight monitors in Mooneys… check the length of the G3’s box… one of the Insight boxes was too long to install in Cris’s Eagle so he went with a G2 instead…(?)

7) Lots of good choices to go with…. Be sure to know if the monitor is approved for primary instruments… not all readings on the instrument are primary approved… be very detail oriented up front.

8) The important part… know how to get the data out of the instrument… some may require installing a small data port… others use a small data chip… get the data… know how to use it or where to send it…

9) When things get tough… it is great to have an engine’s history already in Savvy… then load the latest flights into Savvy for comparison…

10) Savvy and EI folks are great as they are here often giving great support for MSers… one of them flys a really nice M20K…   

+1 for MSers and their support crew!!!

11) If I had a fully integrated Big G panel… I would add the big G engine monitor… as it collects lots of flight data as well from the navigators….

12) If I wanted the best large format Engine monitor to go with my big G panel… I would follow DonK… and get EI’s MVP…. (DK’s panel is all Big G except his EI MVP…)

13) If I wanted what everybody else had… JPI meets that spec… good, not great, when trouble arises, service has been hard to get…improving slowly…

14) How tight is the budget?

15) How big are your wide screens for engine data display?

16) Small displays may have several pages to flip through or data flipping automatically through all the cylinders…

17) being built in Canada could be helpful…. And nobody complains about insight service…  lots of their strikefinders have made their way into Mooneys….

Verify all the details before ordering….   

How much would it cost to get my panel updated to DK status….?  Or StevenL status…

Go MSers!

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I haven’t any trouble with JPI service, they’ve answered my questions, I sent my 900 to get a firmware update and they upgraded the motherboard at no cost.

[0TreeLemur]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I haven’t any trouble with JPI service, they’ve answered my questions, I sent my 900 to get a firmware update and they upgraded the motherboard at no cost.

Ditto.   Fast turnaround between trips even.

[ArrowBerry]

Thanks guys, this has all been super helpful in narrowing down the options. When we get ready to pull the plug I feel better about being informed!

[Guest]

6 hours ago, ArrowBerry said:

Thanks guys, this has all been super helpful in narrowing down the options. When we get ready to pull the plug I feel better about being informed!

Part of your decision should be the quality of the wiring, connections, probes etc.  I’ve repaired a few EI systems over the years, and based on that, I’ve never installed one, but numerous JPI and Insight systems.

[luv737s]

went from this

To this MVP-50 and love it..used many JPI units and this is easier to use in my opinion.

[TheAv8r]

7 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Part of your decision should be the quality of the wiring, connections, probes etc.  I’ve repaired a few EI systems over the years, and based on that, I’ve never installed one, but numerous JPI and Insight systems.

+1 

I'm not trying to attack or bash any company here, but I was a member of a very active flying club for awhile. We had the CGR-30 on one plane, JPI 830 on the other. We had numerous issues with the probes and connections on the CGR, replaced them constantly, redid the wiring several times. We never had to touch the other 2 planes with JPIs in them. When I was getting ready to do the engine monitor on my plane, it was the #1 thing the club owner told me - don't go with the CGR, too many issues. 

Likely a YMMV story, but just sharing that one experience.

[oregon87]

38 minutes ago, TheAv8r said:

+1 

I'm not trying to attack or bash any company here, but I was a member of a very active flying club for awhile. We had the CGR-30 on one plane, JPI 830 on the other. We had numerous issues with the probes and connections on the CGR, replaced them constantly, redid the wiring several times. We never had to touch the other 2 planes with JPIs in them. When I was getting ready to do the engine monitor on my plane, it was the #1 thing the club owner told me - don't go with the CGR, too many issues. 

Likely a YMMV story, but just sharing that one experience.

I understand your concern and appreciate your willingness to share your experience.  If you wouldn't mind, could you provide additional information?  Did you return the suspect probes to us for evaluation?  If so, under what name or RMA number where they returned?  I'd love to research this further to address your concerns directly.

Of course we cannot claim to have never seen a premature failure of one of our probes,  However, to see numerous issues with a single aircraft would be exceedingly rare.  Not to point fingers, but we have found some installers do not install our connectors per the provided instructions.  As a result, the operator experiences connection related problems and the blame is incorrectly placed on the manufacturer of the product.  We did receive a suspect batch of TC wire a few years ago which appeared to cause a larger number of failures.  While we cannot exactly pinpoint the cause as the damage we observed could've been installation related, we changed manufactures as a precautionary measure and the number of premature failures has appeared to have improved.   

Worth noting, all of our products carry a one-year warranty.  If a probe does fail unexpectedly and within warranty period, we will happily replace it at no charge.  As an aside, if you happen to attend Sun N Fun or Oshkosh and have a failed probe outside of warranty, maybe even WAY outside of warranty, it wouldn't be terribly uncommon for one of staff members manning the booth to put one in your bag of swag at no charge.  Having said that, you guys and gals CANNOT use this post as a way to get free probe!  

[Wildhorsetrail]

Back in June, I installed a CGR-30p in my 1979 M20J, and it has been great. I love the features and the install was relatively easy in my opinion. Customer support via email was top notch. I got quick and informed replies.