Which way to go?

[Red Leader]

Guys, I have a minor dilemma and need some advice. I currently own a 1981 M20K which is in very good condition but recent IFR flight training shows it is more than a handful when learning to fly by instruments only. Those who own one already know that it is a plane that requires constant attention so adding this extra dimension of flight shows me that, perhaps, I should not be learning on this. 

My dilemma is that I have a line on a newer (1995) Ovation. Not being a turbo, I am sure my level of task saturation will be reduced (good for practicing IFR). Flying an Ovation will likely burn more fuel than my 231 but it does go faster (right?). It has slightly better instrumentation and although my paint and interior are both new (and the engine times are similar), a recent pre-buy on the M20R shows many small items that require repair to be ensure airworthiness. It will be an expensive first annual.

I have not flown an Ovation so my question is this - Should I keep my K or consider the Ovation as a better option for training? In spite of the cost of repairs, the price is reasonable and I can afford it. What would I be losing by moving to the newer plane? What would I be giving up? I hope the experienced brain trust can enlighten my choice.

[hais]

Curious why it is handful? I always was under the impression that turbos have less workload. 

[Rwsavory]

The Mooney you should buy for IFR training is a Cessna 172. Seriously though, you should rent a suitable trainer rather than use a complex airplane for this. It will make getting the rating a lot easier and avoid wear and tear on your plane.

[Red Leader]

Although I have an automatic wastgate, engine management on a 231 requires close monitoring.

[Red Leader]

Aside from fuel efficiency, I am mostly interested in knowing what I would be giving up by getting a M20R and selling my M20K. What performance would I gain, how much more fuel would I use, Is it indeed easier to fly? Renting a 172 in my area costs $250/hr for JUST the plane so I would prefer to learn in what I have. Also, it is said that it is best to learn instruments in the plane you will ultimately fly.

[Rwsavory]

Just now, Red Leader said:

Also, it is said that it is best to learn instruments in the plane you will ultimately fly.

Whoever said that is wrong. In any event, good luck in your training.

[Will.iam]

If it was me i would trade up to the ovation since you said i could afford the fixups. You can fly the ovation at the m20k speeds but you can’t fly the m20k at ovation speeds unless you go on oxygen up high. In other words i think there would be more versatility down low. And you get the glass instead of the steam intruments right? If you fly in mountainous areas often that would be a harder decision to make. 

[Ragsf15e]

Imo, I’d stick with what you have and know.  The 231 is a great airplane and you will learn how best to handle it in instruments.  You should have some goto power settings for vectors and approaches that very much simplify operations.  They should be nowhere near power or temp limits as speed isn’t required in that phase of flight.  You need a very simple ~120 kts level setting that you can just set mp, prop, ff and forget without worrying about it.
 

If you want the ovation, just to have it, go for it. But it won’t make the majority of training much easier and it will come with lots of gremlins that you have already worked out in your current airplane.

[glbtrottr]

It’s all about $$$ as presented.

You’re also combining a few things, I think…

You want a newer airplane that’s got extra room? Ok, ovation.

You want to keep what you just got done spending money on (interior, etc)? Keep your K.

You want to learn IFR? No reason you can’t on your existing model. Autopilot, altitude preselect, coupled approaches all make this feasible. Short of the expense of flying your turbo TSIO360, learn IFR on whatever you want.

Want to learn IFR on the cheap? Fly a 172/152, but will it be equipped the same?

250/hr rental is probably more than your engine reserve ($45000 overhaul /1800 hr tbo=$25. Ymmv). Plus gas.

I used to fly the snot out of my K model when I worked it in the Midwest. Gns430, mx20, flight director autopilot, HSI, spare vacuum / spare battery operated GPS and battery radio, xm weather (pre Adsb days). I’m still in one piece. The turbo helped me avoid some icing conditions, freezing rain, crappy weather, etc.

The ovation engine, in my opinion, will be larger and less fickle and provide for better cooling / longer cylinder duration - but perhaps I’m being a prima Donna. The benefit or drawback of turbo vs non turbo has every thing to do with the flying you do.

- how often do you fly IFR?
- how often do you fly over big rocks?
- do you need the extra room?
- is it nice to keep up with the joneses ?
- do you have extra cash burning a hole in your pocket?

Chances are after annual and some time I may end up selling my K model. Why would i go from a paid off Mooney I own to an older one that is almost 1/5th the cost of mine?

Money. Cost of overhauls, hourly cost to operate, how infrequently I go over big mountains or wear a cannula, size of passenger space I need, etc.

I can equip an IFR airplane with as cheap an approach WAAS gps as possible (430w, even a 430, gns480, garmin 375/355) and keep an existing navcom and I’ve got a capable IFR platform. Between that and foreflight as a backup, a garmin portable like the 696/760/796 with ADSB in, I don’t see a need for a $50-125k avionics panel.

Perhaps you can share more with us about your mission


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[Red Leader]

4 minutes ago, glbtrottr said:

Perhaps you can share more with us about your mission

My mission? I love to fly!

What I don't love is constantly checking temps. Until I upgrade my current engine monitor, which I am planning on doing soon, I have to spin a dial to look at individual CHT's. Currently I have only one EGT, which uses the same gauge and changes by switch position. My autopilot is an older KFC200 which does not have altitude preselect nor does it have GPSS coupled with my 530w. The aircraft I am considering has a GTN750 and KFC150. I don't know if the 150 is better than the 200.

I doubt mountain flying is in my future but cannot rule it out. I wish to get my IFR to expand my flying options but know the Ovation will not climb nearly as high as the 231. 

[Schllc]

47 minutes ago, Rwsavory said:

The Mooney you should buy for IFR training is a Cessna 172. Seriously though, you should rent a suitable trainer rather than use a complex airplane for this. It will make getting the rating a lot easier and avoid wear and tear on your plane.

With all due respect to the other opinion. I couldn’t disagree with this more. 
Whatever plane you plan to fly, is the plane you should fly for your ifr training.  
honestly, what better way to build proficiency in the platform you intend to fly?

I got my ovation shortly before I finished my ppl, and did 100% of my ifr in the ovation and bought an acclaim almost immediately after I finished. 
I have 1000+ hours in mooney’s and I am very proficient.  Even so I do ipc’s with different instructors every 6-9 months. 
How does training in a completely different aircraft prepare you for the stress and overloading in single pilot ifr?

Your k feels overwhelming because of how much new info is being thrown at you. Maybe it takes a little longer to get ready for a check ride, but when you get your ticket and are flying your full time plane, you won’t be starting over. 
If you like your k, stick with it, and the day you make your first solo real IMC approach you will be very glad you did   

[glbtrottr]

My mission? I love to fly!
What I don't love is constantly checking temps. Until I upgrade my current engine monitor, which I am planning on doing soon, I have to spin a dial to look at individual CHT's. Currently I have only one EGT, which uses the same gauge and changes by switch position. My autopilot is an older KFC200 which does not have altitude preselect nor does it have GPSS coupled with my 530w. The aircraft I am considering has a GTN750 and KFC150. I don't know if the 150 is better than the 200.
I doubt mountain flying is in my future but cannot rule it out. I wish to get my IFR to expand my flying options but know the Ovation will not climb nearly as high as the 231. 

Hmm.

You sound like an ovation pilot to me…
Since money isn’t your issue, go learn in your K. When you upgrade to the ovation, you’ll be grateful for the automation you didnt have.

Skip the 172.

As others have said, love (and learn in) the one you’re with. Nothing worse than hunting, pecking and freaking out during an IMC flight because things in your mooney aren’t where they were in the cessna you learned in.


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[Schllc]

35 minutes ago, glbtrottr said:

As others have said, love (and learn in) the one you’re with. Nothing worse than hunting, pecking and freaking out during an IMC flight because things in your mooney aren’t where they were in the cessna you learned in.

^^^^^^THIS!!!!^^^^^^

[Schllc]

55 minutes ago, Red Leader said:

My mission? I love to fly!

What I don't love is constantly checking temps. Until I upgrade my current engine monitor, which I am planning on doing soon, I have to spin a dial to look at individual CHT's. Currently I have only one EGT, which uses the same gauge and changes by switch position. My autopilot is an older KFC200 which does not have altitude preselect nor does it have GPSS coupled with my 530w. The aircraft I am considering has a GTN750 and KFC150. I don't know if the 150 is better than the 200.

I doubt mountain flying is in my future but cannot rule it out. I wish to get my IFR to expand my flying options but know the Ovation will not climb nearly as high as the 231. 

I have only a few hours in a k, and only one approach so I don’t really remember, but I would think at approach power settings you wouldn’t have to worry about any temps at all. 
Is this not the case in the k models?

[irishpilot]

Turbo planes require a little more attention to the engine monitor. However, it sounds like your current plane needs a modern engine analyzer. The Ovation engine is awesome. Flies LOP and ROP, and is pretty darn simple to set for power settings.

I recommend learning in the plane you plan to use for your mission, whatever that is. If you are in the market, look at what you have, how much to upgrade the plane to what you'd like, then look at what you're willing to purchase for an Ovation.

All Mooney models are stable IFR platforms. Memorize and fly your pitch and power settings for climbout, enroute, descent, holding, precision and non-precision. That's the best thing you can do to build some thinking space for the procedures. Too many pilots guesstimate their pitch and power settings, which breaks down their instrument crosscheck.

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[hubcap]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Imo, I’d stick with what you have and know.  The 231 is a great airplane and you will learn how best to handle it in instruments.  You should have some goto power settings for vectors and approaches that very much simplify operations.  They should be nowhere near power or temp limits as speed isn’t required in that phase of flight.  You need a very simple ~120 kts level setting that you can just set mp, prop, ff and forget without worrying about it.

In my opinion, this is the best advice on this thread. 

Personally, I fly IFR 99% of the time in my 231. Once you learn the correct numbers to fly, doing what you're doing, which is probably flying approaches, you just set the numbers and no longer worry about it...just fly the plane,

[Culver LFA]

For me, the instrument rating was a tough one. It was mentally exhausting at times but probably the most rewarding check ride to complete. 

Are you sure it's the airplane you are struggling with?  I wouldn't change anything equipment wise or you may take a big step back learning a new airplane and then picking up your training where you had left off.

[Red Leader]

Maybe I am making too much from my first IFR lesson. I was 1-hour under the hood and performed 4 approaches. Having to set up the 530 and monitor everything else (hand-flying the aircraft) was more than a bit overwhelming. The approaches were no problem and I had no issues with any one particular phase of flight. I have my K dialed-in extremely well and don't want to sell it, but to upgrade... A simpler platform with newer avionics and a lower-time engine seemed like an option to consider. 

Hence my dilemma.

[Rwsavory]

That’s certainly to be expected at your first lesson. Just keep working at it, and it will click in. It will take some time.

[Schllc]

33 minutes ago, Red Leader said:

Maybe I am making too much from my first IFR lesson. I was 1-hour under the hood and performed 4 approaches. Having to set up the 530 and monitor everything else (hand-flying the aircraft) was more than a bit overwhelming. The approaches were no problem and I had no issues with any one particular phase of flight. I have my K dialed-in extremely well and don't want to sell it, but to upgrade... A simpler platform with newer avionics and a lower-time engine seemed like an option to consider. 

Hence my dilemma.

You are absolutely asking too much of your first lesson. 
you are drinking from a firehouse. 
simplifying the platform is kicking the can. 
everyone is overwhelmed when they start. 
its serious business, with an enormous amount of information. Stick with it. 
nothing good comes easy.

[irishpilot]

A simpler platform with newer avionics and a lower-time engine seemed like an option to consider. 
Hence my dilemma.

You just went through the 1st sortie “eye opener”. I’d say don’t make any major plane decisions for a hot second. My best advice as a CFII is spend the time and money to take consistent training for your IFR ticket. Don’t drag the training out over a year plus. Proficiency and building upon achieved competencies will pay major dividends.


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[LANCECASPER]

14 minutes ago, Red Leader said:

Maybe I am making too much from my first IFR lesson. I was 1-hour under the hood and performed 4 approaches. Having to set up the 530 and monitor everything else (hand-flying the aircraft) was more than a bit overwhelming. The approaches were no problem and I had no issues with any one particular phase of flight. I have my K dialed-in extremely well and don't want to sell it, but to upgrade... A simpler platform with newer avionics and a lower-time engine seemed like an option to consider. 

Hence my dilemma.

There is almost no difference in learning to fly IFR in a 231 or Ovation. Just learn the power setting for the airplane you decide to use. I got my IFR in a 231 and later owned an Ovation with a couple Bravos and an Encore in between.

If you weren't overwhelmed by your first lesson something would be wrong with you.

Most people think they are really good at multi-tasking. Most people aren't very good at multi-tasking. Learning not to fixate on any one thing was the biggest obstacle for me in learning to fly IFR. The closer that you can put your lessons together the better. Once I got serious about my rating there were days that I flew in the morning and then later in the day. To finish up I got an instructor that was willing to fly 10 days straight so I could put it all together.

[Culver LFA]

38 minutes ago, Red Leader said:

Maybe I am making too much from my first IFR lesson. I was 1-hour under the hood and performed 4 approaches. Having to set up the 530 and monitor everything else (hand-flying the aircraft) was more than a bit overwhelming. The approaches were no problem and I had no issues with any one particular phase of flight. I have my K dialed-in extremely well and don't want to sell it, but to upgrade... A simpler platform with newer avionics and a lower-time engine seemed like an option to consider. 

Hence my dilemma.

Yes, first lesson and it sounds like you did a ton during it.

Definitely don't put another thought into changing airplanes right now. 

If you don't have one already, set up a computer in a quiet place you can sneak away and shoot approaches on a flight simulator.  I think I was able to learn 10x's more sitting in front of the computer with a beer and X-plane flight simulator flying IMC and shooting approaches than I did when in the actual airplane.  I would often times "re-fly" the days lesson with the flight sim which really helped me to understand what happened when my brain was fried in the airplane.

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, Red Leader said:

Maybe I am making too much from my first IFR lesson.

I remember feeling really inadequate, like maybe I wasn’t cut out for this, it was truly overwhelming.  
I eventually realized that was because I took it seriously, I cared, and I wanted to learn. 
I had no gauge other than others I knew that did it, but I didn’t see them do it…. 
I agree with the advice to not stretch it out. 
fly as frequently as you can, I flew two or three times a week. It took me longer than some because I was a new pilot, and was in an ovation with a g1000. 
I had  only flown a dinky flight school 172. No AP, no gps, was lucky to have two working radios in those pieces of junk. 
The modern Mooney was overwhelming. 

I dont think that’s unusual. Like someone else said, if you aren’t overwhelmed, that should concern you!

Stick with it in your plane, it’s one less thing to learn while your saturated. 
Not only will it get easier, it will be the most rewarding ticket you ever get. 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Red Leader said:

Maybe I am making too much from my first IFR lesson. I was 1-hour under the hood and performed 4 approaches.

The question becomes, why did you do four instrument approaches on your first IFR training flight?