Lingering in icing

[hais]

Looks like it's not only about risk mitigation, there's also a physical limit under constant conditions - though we may not know where the limit is ...

[Ragsf15e]

35 minutes ago, hais said:

Looks like it's not only about risk mitigation, there's also a physical limit under constant conditions - though we may not know where the limit is ...

 

38 minutes ago, hais said:

So, if I assume critical surfaces are ice free, I can compute for a given airspeed how long it will take for unprotected surfaces to accumulate enough to exceed available lift. This gets complicated quickly: assuming the ice doesn't break off due to wind/own weight, we'll have non-linear rate of accumulation...

Unprotected surfaces don’t really accumulate ice. Unless it gets real bad, but then it’s real bad.

[Pinecone]

My take is, FIKI allows me to legally check things out.  

For ME, it is not a license to continue to fly in icing conditions.   I would be looking for a way out.

If ATC wants you to stop your climb or descent in icing, I would be asking for something different.  Nicely at first.

[M20F]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

 

Unprotected surfaces don’t really accumulate ice. Unless it gets real bad, but then it’s real bad.

As AA4184 showed everyone. 

[GeeBee]

In April I was in moderate ice at 11K over RIC east bound. I stayed in it for the following reasons

a. I wanted to see if my well maintained TKS system was working as anticipated. Real conditions are the best test.

b. I knew I would be out of it by PXT based upon METARS if my system threw craps

c. I knew a descent of down to 7 would get it out of it if my system threw craps 

d. There was no SLD forecasted

So yes, I "lingered"

Now would I "linger" if I was heading to higher terrain with deteriorating conditions. No.

In the same way I once departed KTRK in a King Air, ran into moderate plus. The best course was to continue toward SFO in ice because I was heading towards lower terrain, where I could safely descend into warmer air. I cleaned off the ADF antennas off the belly and I am pretty sure I dropped at least a 200 pound chunk over Modesto, as I descended to make the restriction at CEDES.

The aviation weather.gov site has a pretty good icing forecast tool which includes rates from light to SLD. I find it accurate and meaningful for flight planning.  

[201er]

https://www.baaa-acro.com/sites/default/files/2019-11/N731CA.pdf
 

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

As AA4184 showed everyone. 

Yes holding in freezing rain and/or SLD is a bad idea in anything.  Without that kind of ice forecast and a good out plan like @GeeBee talked about, I’m ok for short periods of light icing kind of like GeeBee described.  Lower to warm air with plenty of room above terrain is typically the best out plan in small planes.

[Schllc]

Anyone who has had a real encounter with icing, has no desire to relive the experience. 
Even asking the question seemed somewhat crazy to me, but then I realized not everyone has had the experience.

Those who have not are probably pretty sure, as I was, that there was some embellishment, and/or exaggeration.

My experience took all of about 3-5 seconds to go from completely clean to accumulating 3”+ on the wings, enough to completely block the windshield, and cut my rate of climb by two thirds. I saw rain drops on the windshield, looked at the wings, looked back at the windshield which was completely covered in ice, looked back at the wings to see the 3”+. It took me longer to type this than it did to actually happen. 

I can honestly say it was the scariest experience of my life, and the thought of “lingering” in conditions that could reproduce that experience is just unfathomable. 
I would NEVER intentionally take a single engine piston, with or without FIKI knowingly into icing conditions. 
But to each their own….

[GeeBee]

9 hours ago, 201er said:

https://www.baaa-acro.com/sites/default/files/2019-11/N731CA.pdf
 

 

Well let's look at the TBM. No evidence of a wx briefing. AIRMET for icing. PIREP of severe icing. He encounters the icing over non mountainous indeed flat terrain and he decides to climb. Look at the terrain he crashed into? See any frozen precipitation? Consider what the enroute METARS was telling him. In a propeller driven airplane, a climb to exit icing is usually a prelude to a bad outcome. Unless you know for a fact a 1000 or 2000 foot change will get you on top and you will stay on top, bad idea. Consider this, an HS125 has a smaller TKS tank than a Mooney, yet the size is considered adequate by the FAA. Why? (Hint, it is called excess thrust)

Almost every possible bad decision was made.

[FlyingDude]

19 hours ago, hais said:

this question is not geared towards decision making or planning

Do you live in a part of the world that gets a lot of icing?  I see you're in Canada, but that's a big country which I'm sure has a lot of variations in local climates.  You might be getting a lot of snow, which does not always translate into ice.

[Fly Boomer]

11 hours ago, Schllc said:

I would NEVER intentionally take a single engine piston, with or without FIKI knowingly into icing conditions. 

Amen brother.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Amen brother.

I value those opinions, but in some parts of the country that translates into using your airplane 4 months/year.  A closer look at specific conditions in those areas may allow safe operations - even operations you’d feel comfortable with.

Heres my example: Spokane, Wa has a 500’ - 1000’ overcast most of the winter (December to April).  If there’s no storm system, it’s generally clear above ~3,000’.  However, it’s forecast/known icing in that layer.  You can get pireps on the tops, type of ice and severity.

I don’t fly in or out of that in my F.  However, I’m happy to use a Cirrus with fiki for client training and even to shoot approaches.  
 

Again, I don’t advocate cruise in ice or purposely flying into severe or sld etc.  But fiki can significantly increase your dispatch with safe margins.

[Fly Boomer]

26 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

in some parts of the country that translates into using your airplane 4 months/year

Yeah, I live in the Midwest and, while we certainly have some wonky weather, it's not as restrictive as what you describe.  If I were in your shoes, I might have to rethink my personal minimums.

[GeeBee]

You are significantly reducing your FIKI airplane's utility to say you would never fly in known icing conditions. For instance I don't get within 200 miles of SLD and I eschew solid moderate conditions. Equally so, I avoid a hint of moderate icing conditions in high or rising terrain where my ability to drop down is limited. However, I will fly and penetrate known light conditions over good terrain providing myself an out if I have equipment failure. Like most things in aviation it is a threat to be managed, just like the threat of flying a single engine airplane or a Part 23 twin.

Yes there are conditions that can overwhelm an airplane, the worst I had was an MD-88 out of Hartford. Even the heated windshields could not keep up, let alone the bleed air on the airfoils at MCT. So I respect what ice can do very quickly.  Since AA4184 icing forecasts have improved 100% particularly in graphical forecasts. Still it is why in a propeller airplane, where thrust can be so quickly affected you need to be able to exit quickly and the quickest exit is down so plan on it.

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

You are significantly reducing your FIKI airplane's utility to say you would never fly in known icing conditions. 

I agree with you, it does limit the use of my plane. 
I don’t judge or disparage people who utilize the system. It’s obviously proven and capable. 
I just personally don’t wish to experience that again, and since all of my flying is discretionary, I’ll wait for favorable conditions, or buy a twin, which is what I did….

I doubt I will take that into known ice either!!

I’m  a big ole chicken!!

[GeeBee]

You are not chicken. You are conservative in your operation and there is everything right about that. It takes a long time and a lot of experience to operate an airplane to its maximum potential. I would encourage you to fly with someone who can give you experience in using your FIKI system however, so that when you need it, you know exactly what to expect from it. 

 

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

I’m  a big ole chicken!!

Hi there, chicken. I'm proud to call myself a coward!  

[kortopates]

Hi there, chicken. I'm proud to call myself a coward!  

More like wise!
You C guys have the added threat of having your air filter directly in the exposed airstream. Wet snow has brought down more than 1.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hank]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

More like wise!
You C guys have the added threat of having your air filter directly in the exposed airstream. Wet snow has brought down more than 1.

I hate snow! I hate all snow!!

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

More like wise!
You C guys have the added threat of having your air filter directly in the exposed airstream. Wet snow has brought down more than 1.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That shouldn’t happen, you open the carb heat and you get hot unfiltered air.

That being said I’ve worked on a couple of planes where the carb heat was so FUed and mis rigged that it wouldn’t save anybody’s ass.

Edited July 15, 2022 by N201MKTurbo

[Schllc]

5 hours ago, GeeBee said:

You are not chicken. You are conservative in your operation and there is everything right about that. It takes a long time and a lot of experience to operate an airplane to its maximum potential. I would encourage you to fly with someone who can give you experience in using your FIKI system however, so that when you need it, you know exactly what to expect from it. 

 

 

I know, it was a tongue in cheek comment. 
I think the title of the thread is what piqued my comment. 
Why would one have to ask the question of why you would want to “linger in icing”?  
Icing conditions are unpredictable and vary wildly. It may be a small risk, and I may have won the lottery with my encounter, but I don’t want to get lucky again.  I also don’t fly for a living, and don’t have to be anywhere badly enough to plan to go into those conditions. 
I’m quite familiar with the tks system on my plane and have had to use it inadvertently a few times.  
I didn’t buy a fiki equipped plane to change how I plan, I bought it for inadvertent ice. 
I bought a FIKI twin, and I doubt I’ll plan to fly that into those conditions either. 
It’s just a personal decision, I don’t think those who do it are foolish or irresponsible, they just have a different risk tolerance. 

 

[hais]

13 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Do you live in a part of the world that gets a lot of icing?  I see you're in Canada, but that's a big country which I'm sure has a lot of variations in local climates.  You might be getting a lot of snow, which does not always translate into ice.

Vancouver - I recall someone boasting once that we are the icing capital of the world.

[hais]

11 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I know, it was a tongue in cheek comment. 
I think the title of the thread is what piqued my comment. 
Why would one have to ask the question of why you would want to “linger in icing”?  
Icing conditions are unpredictable and vary wildly. It may be a small risk, and I may have won the lottery with my encounter, but I don’t want to get lucky again.  I also don’t fly for a living, and don’t have to be anywhere badly enough to plan to go into those conditions. 
I’m quite familiar with the tks system on my plane and have had to use it inadvertently a few times.  
I didn’t buy a fiki equipped plane to change how I plan, I bought it for inadvertent ice. 
I bought a FIKI twin, and I doubt I’ll plan to fly that into those conditions either. 
It’s just a personal decision, I don’t think those who do it are foolish or irresponsible, they just have a different risk tolerance. 

 

Why I would ask : to understand the physics of what happens if conditions don't change. Put this in the same bucket as "what happens to power as altitude increases?". 

[GeeBee]

It is not how does the system work, but how does the system perform on your airplane in icing. Knowing what it protects well, what it does not, as well as when to use for instance max vs normal. Those are real world problems that can only be answered by experience.

 

[Scott Dennstaedt, PhD]

On 7/13/2022 at 8:55 AM, Fly Boomer said:

Also, there is SLD ice which can overwhelm your ice protection pretty quickly:

https://www.ctsys.com/sld-icing-avoid-avoid-avoid/

Just to point out that there's some bad or incomplete guidance in this article.