Whelen 650E series LED strobes on M20J

[Martin S.]

Evening everybody,

My 1978 M20J has the wing tip stc with strobes. One of the strobe bulbs broke. I am therefore considering to go with LEDS. I thought the 650E series LED strobes were STCed for the M20J. However, the STC does not mention the J. Am I overlooking something here?

 

Greets,

 

Martin

[ArtVandelay]

Maybe because those models didn’t have the wingtips that take the 650E, starting with J they did, so an STC is not required?

[KSMooniac]

Check with your IA, but standard TSO lights & strobes are minor mods and thus do not require an STC.  That is the interpretation of every reasonable IA that I know.  YMMV

[atpdave]

I’m not a maintenance expert, but I think STC SA800EA allows strobe installations on aircraft not originally equipped with strobes and would not apply to M20Js and later models.  Martin’s wingtip STC assures that with the newer wingtips the lighting coverage still complies with regulatory requirements, among other things like aerodynamic and structural issues.  Replacing the nav/strobe assembly with 650E LEDs in the newer wingtips should be a minor mod with no other STC required.

[OSUAV8TER]

One big reason why there may be no STC for your particular type aircraft  is because Whelen used existing STCs to get the LED lights certified. If the aircraft came with Whelen lights as OEM equipment then there was no STC to piggy back off. Rest assured they are all FAA TSO approved as an anti-collision and night position light. The proper pathway to modifying the aircraft is through a minor alteration with a logbook entry. No 337 and no IA sign off.

[OSUAV8TER]

Following now.

[Martin S.]

Got a little follow up question. I have the Whelen legacy A625 strobe/nav lights. Which LED version of the Orion line would be the best replacement for these? It seems the Orion 650 and 650E are replacements for the legacy 650 series and there is no Orion 625E product. Are the Orion 650/Es compatible with the legacy 625?

Greets,

Martin

[OSUAV8TER]

18 minutes ago, Martin S. said:

Got a little follow up question. I have the Whelen legacy A625 strobe/nav lights. Which LED version of the Orion line would be the best replacement for these? It seems the Orion 650 and 650E are replacements for the legacy 650 series and there is no Orion 625E product. Are the Orion 650/Es compatible with the legacy 625?

Greets,

Martin

Hi Martin, probably an Orion 650E. So the A625 is embedded behind a lens in your wingtip, correct? I have the Orion 650E in stock. 

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, OSUAV8TER said:

One big reason why there may be no STC for your particular type aircraft  is because Whelen used existing STCs to get the LED lights certified. If the aircraft came with Whelen lights as OEM equipment then there was no STC to piggy back off. Rest assured they are all FAA TSO approved as an anti-collision and night position light. The proper pathway to modifying the aircraft is through a minor alteration with a logbook entry. No 337 and no IA sign off.

What i think will need an IA sign off though is the change in weight and balance due to removing the Power Supplies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[OSUAV8TER]

15 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

What i think will need an IA sign off though is the change in weight and balance due to removing the Power Supplies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Does an IA have to sign off on a revised W&B? I'm not sure about that. 

[LANCECASPER]

5 minutes ago, OSUAV8TER said:

Does an IA have to sign off on a revised W&B? I'm not sure about that. 

You may be right.

[Martin S.]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:59 PM, OSUAV8TER said:

Hi Martin, probably an Orion 650E. So the A625 is embedded behind a lens in your wingtip, correct? I have the Orion 650E in stock. 

Yes, my 625 is behind a lens. I'll try to make some fotos next time, just to check the assembly for compatibility.

[EricJ]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:14 AM, LANCECASPER said:

What i think will need an IA sign off though is the change in weight and balance due to removing the Power Supplies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

An A&P can do that.

[Niko182]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:36 PM, LANCECASPER said:

You may be right.

a new weight and balance doesn't need to be done. However it is worth while in my opinions since you can never have too much useful load. It's a small difference, but multiple small differences add up to a big one.

[atpdave]

The IA who inspected my LED upgrade thought the minor weight change was enough to do a W&B update.  Easy to do; why not do it?

[KB4]

12 hours ago, atpdave said:

minor weight change

Power supplies about 2-3 lbs each plus mounting bolts nuts washers, it will add up.  Shed about 10 lbs. U need new W&B. 

[carusoam]

One thing to keep an eye on when going LEDs…

Some annunciator panels sense the nav lights being on or off for the dimming function…

Another minor wire change may be required to keep the dimming function alive… 

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

A new W&B is required whenever a repair or alteration is made that changes the W&B.   Often if the difference in the weight is less than a pound no change is made since it would arguably not result in a significant numerical change in the results.   An alteration with a net removal of a few pounds would make a numerical change in the empty weight and so it would be tough to argue that it doesn't need to be updated.

These accumulated small changes over many alterations over time are one reason why people are often reluctant to weigh their airplanes, because the many-times-updated and perhaps-many-more-times-not-updated W&B sheet may have a lot of accumulated errors compared to actual.

[Martin S.]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

One thing to keep an eye on when going LEDs…

Some annunciator panels sense the nav lights being on or off for the dimming function…

Another minor wire change may be required to keep the dimming function alive… 

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks!

[Martin S.]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:59 PM, OSUAV8TER said:

Hi Martin, probably an Orion 650E. So the A625 is embedded behind a lens in your wingtip, correct? I have the Orion 650E in stock. 

Here you go, took some fotos and measurements. Seems the mounting scheme of the screws of my legacy light is compatible with the one of the 650E (three screws in triangle with distance1 = 1,75 inch and distance2 = 1 inch). 

 

Can you confirm?

 

Greets,

 

Martin

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Martin S. said:

Here you go, took some fotos and measurements. Seems the mounting scheme of the screws of my legacy light is compatible with the one of the 650E (three screws in triangle with distance1 = 1,75 inch and distance2 = 1 inch). 

 

Can you confirm?

 

Greets,

 

Martin

In my experience the mounting for Grimes navigation lights (which you have) and Whelen,  are the same.

Clarence

[OSUAV8TER]

2 hours ago, Martin S. said:

Here you go, took some fotos and measurements. Seems the mounting scheme of the screws of my legacy light is compatible with the one of the 650E (three screws in triangle with distance1 = 1,75 inch and distance2 = 1 inch). 

 

Can you confirm?

 

Greets,

 

Martin

Yes the Orion 650E is a direct replacement for that. I have them in stock and I can ship them where every you like.

[KB4]

21 hours ago, M20Doc said:

In my experience the mounting for Grimes navigation lights (which you have) and Whelen,  are the same.

Clarence

Martin:

The Whelen mounting plate might only line up with 2 holes and a void for the 3rd.  Nut plate may be required to align it at the proper angle as per instructions 

[OSUAV8TER]

5 minutes ago, KB4 said:

Martin:

The Whelen mounting plate might only line up with 2 holes and a void for the 3rd.  Nut plate may be required to align it at the proper angle as per instructions 

Yours looks like it had a separate navigation and strobe light? There have been several iterations with this wingtip to include Hoskins, Grimes, and Whelen lights. Many different light configurations. As pictured previously, a WAT Orion 650E is a direct fit and shouldnt require drilling any new holes.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, OSUAV8TER said:

Yours looks like it had a separate navigation and strobe light? There have been several iterations with this wingtip to include Hoskins, Grimes, and Whelen lights. Many different light configurations. As pictured previously, a WAT Orion 650E is a direct fit and shouldnt require drilling any new holes.

I had the separate nav and strobe light, too.  IIRC, my shop had to do something similar to mount it