GeneralT001 Posted February 26, 2022 Report Posted February 26, 2022 Anyone know if I could put that speed brake button onto the Yoke where the arrow is pointing? That switch doesn't do anything at the moment and it would just seem more convenient to have it there? Will this involve an act of God to accomplish?
A64Pilot Posted February 26, 2022 Report Posted February 26, 2022 (edited) Your a Canadian aircraft? Your rules may be different if so. In the US, I’d do it by adding a second switch and leaving the original where it is, I’d say adding second was a minor as assuming the original is where the TC says it goes, moving it could be argued as changing the TC especially if the POH calls out its position. Only Mooney I flew with one had it on the left side of the left Yoke, where is yours? Edited February 26, 2022 by A64Pilot
Guest Posted February 26, 2022 Report Posted February 26, 2022 Unless there is a limitation in the STC or the installation manual, you can locate it anywhere that you’d like. Many are located on the pilots yoke. Clarence
GeneralT001 Posted February 26, 2022 Author Report Posted February 26, 2022 2 hours ago, M20Doc said: Unless there is a limitation in the STC or the installation manual, you can locate it anywhere that you’d like. Many are located on the pilots yoke. Clarence Thanks Clarence Btw...I've taken the plunge and will be all glass before the year ends, assuming all goes well that is.
Aerodon Posted February 26, 2022 Report Posted February 26, 2022 The installation instructions refer to installing the switch near the throttle like yours, or on the control wheel LHS. I assume the thinking is your left hand is on the control wheel and your right hand is on or near the throttle. Mine is on the control wheel LHS and I like it there. Aerodon
GeneralT001 Posted February 26, 2022 Author Report Posted February 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Aerodon said: The installation instructions refer to installing the switch near the throttle like yours, or on the control wheel LHS. I assume the thinking is your left hand is on the control wheel and your right hand is on or near the throttle. Mine is on the control wheel LHS and I like it there. Aerodon Can you take a picture and show me? Would be appreciated
A64Pilot Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 It’s been 30 years, but the M20JAT’s I flew the factory installed the button on the left outside of the Yoke near the top, button pointed towards the window, you would actuate the button with the side of your thumb. I liked the location, but then again I was enamored with the speed brakes 1
BravoWhiskey Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 My first few times using the speed brake was all accidental. I thought i was using the radio button. 1
GeneralT001 Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Posted February 27, 2022 33 minutes ago, BravoWhiskey said: My first few times using the speed brake was all accidental. I thought i was using the radio button. Me too....didn't know what to do with it...or trust it not to come back in...although now I see it really isn't that much of a "brake"
carusoam Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 13 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said: Me too....didn't know what to do with it...or trust it not to come back in...although now I see it really isn't that much of a "brake" Depends on when you use it…. On short final… it isn’t much of a brake…. On E-descent from the FLs… it is the down elevator button…. You will be on the ground in minutes… You may want to check your E-descent procedure…. If it doesn’t include the speed brakes…. You really want to practice with one that does… PP thoughts only not a CFI… Best regards, -a-
GeneralT001 Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Posted February 27, 2022 3 minutes ago, carusoam said: Depends on when you use it…. On short final… it isn’t much of a brake…. On E-descent from the FLs… it is the down elevator button…. You will be on the ground in minutes… You may want to check your E-descent procedure…. If it doesn’t include the speed brakes…. You really want to practice with one that does… PP thoughts only not a CFI… Best regards, -a- I guess I'm relating it to the one I used when flying the Tutor...it had a very noticeable effect They were located on the sides of the aft fuselage by the tail.
carusoam Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 12 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said: I guess I'm relating it to the one I used when flying the Tutor...it had a very noticeable effect They were located on the sides of the aft fuselage by the tail. unfortunately, I’m not seeing the Tutor’s SBs… If they are just drag producers, they are probably quite large doors? Our SBs are quite small, and don’t have door like drag… But, they do alter the AOA… by interrupting a lot of airflow over a wide area about 3X the width of the SBs themselves…. This increased AOA at Vg in the descent… is a ton of drag…. They are intelligently placed as well…. Back far enough to be less effective during the landing phase… in case they get stuck deployed…. Bring your CFII along that is familiar with the Mooney SBs… E-descents have never been so much fun…. Check your limitations section for the SBs… their speed limit for deployment should be Vne…. PP thoughts only, not a CFI… -a-
GeneralT001 Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Posted February 27, 2022 1 minute ago, carusoam said: unfortunately, I’m not seeing the Tutor’s SBs… If they are just drag producers, they are probably quite large doors? Our SBs are quite small, and don’t have door like drag… But, they do alter the AOA… by interrupting a lot of airflow over a wide area about 3X the width of the SBs themselves…. This increased AOA at Vg in the descent… is a ton of drag…. They are intelligently placed as well…. Back far enough to be less effective during the landing phase… in case they get stuck deployed…. Bring your CFII along that is familiar with the Mooney SB… E-descents have never been so much fun…. PP thoughts only, not a CFI… -a- You can the one in the rear here: 1
carusoam Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 If they mounted those doors on the top of the wing… The descent rate generated…. You would be on the ground in a minute from any altitude… The speed brake guys must have learned about lift and wing design first… before developing the brakes…. There is very little intuitive thinking that would net us the same result…. To visualize the air flow affects of the speed brakes…. It helps to have them deployed in the rain, at speed…. There is a video around here somewhere for that… Best regards, -a-
GeneralT001 Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Posted February 27, 2022 8 minutes ago, carusoam said: If they mounted those doors on the top of the wing… The descent rate generated…. You would be on the ground in a minute from any altitude… The speed brake guys must have learned about lift and wing design first… before developing the brakes…. There is very little intuitive thinking that would net us the same result…. To visualize the air flow affects of the speed brakes…. It helps to have them deployed in the rain, at speed…. There is a video around here somewhere for that… Best regards, -a- I deployed them many times on that aircraft...a noticeable effect at 400kts
carusoam Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 Velocity squared… of a more obvious surface area… compared to Speed Brakes that is so much more difficult to see the true surface area causing the braking….. and still velocity squared… -a- 1
PT20J Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 Mine is on the outside of the left pilot's yoke horn beneath the autopilot/trim/PTT switch cluster. I believe that was the standard location for a Mooney factory installation since Mooney didn't use a lighted pushbutton but instead had a light in the annunciator panel. I like this position as it is easy to reach with your index finger while holding the yoke normally. One thing about this and glass panels: Glass PFDs generally have a left and a right knob. The left knob is most naturally accessed by reaching around the yoke with your left hand and it is easy to accidentally brush the button with your arm and inadvertently deploy the brakes. Normally, no big deal. But I accidentally did this once while extricating myself from light icing and the ice built on the brakes almost immediately and the left brake did not fully retract. I put a red ring on the speed brake circuit breaker and pull it now if there is any chance of icing. Skip 1
PT20J Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 31 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said: You can the one in the rear here: Nice picture. I was flying a float Beaver south from Campbell River a few years ago and Victoria Terminal called out traffic as a Tudor that would cross my flightpath. The Snowbird passed directly beneath 500' below and blipped the smoke on and off so I could see him as he headed back to join the team at Abbotsford for the airshow. Pretty cool. But it happened so quickly I didn't have time to get a picture. Bet those things are a kick to fly. Skip Skip
GeneralT001 Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Posted February 27, 2022 21 minutes ago, PT20J said: Mine is on the outside of the left pilot's yoke horn beneath the autopilot/trim/PTT switch cluster. I believe that was the standard location for a Mooney factory installation since Mooney didn't use a lighted pushbutton but instead had a light in the annunciator panel. I like this position as it is easy to reach with your index finger while holding the yoke normally. One thing about this and glass panels: Glass PFDs generally have a left and a right knob. The left knob is most naturally accessed by reaching around the yoke with your left hand and it is easy to accidentally brush the button with your arm and inadvertently deploy the brakes. Normally, no big deal. But I accidentally did this once while extricating myself from light icing and the ice built on the brakes almost immediately and the left brake did not fully retract. I put a red ring on the speed brake circuit breaker and pull it now if there is any chance of icing. Skip Thats pretty cool...as the saying goes...if it can happen.....
GeneralT001 Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Posted February 27, 2022 8 minutes ago, PT20J said: Nice picture. I was flying a float Beaver south from Campbell River a few years ago and Victoria Terminal called out traffic as a Tudor that would cross my flightpath. The Snowbird passed directly beneath 500' below and blipped the smoke on and off so I could see him as he headed back to join the team at Abbotsford for the airshow. Pretty cool. But it happened so quickly I didn't have time to get a picture. Bet those things are a kick to fly. Skip Skip They are...handling characteristics of a Spitfire
BravoWhiskey Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 8 hours ago, carusoam said: Depends on when you use it…. On short final… it isn’t much of a brake…. On E-descent from the FLs… it is the down elevator button…. You will be on the ground in minutes… You may want to check your E-descent procedure…. If it doesn’t include the speed brakes…. You really want to practice with one that does… PP thoughts only not a CFI… Best regards, -a- Agreed. I was testing some things out the other day and these have a pretty noticeable affect. Nose pointed down speed stayed the same. Helps me with temps. If i reduce power in decent for anything more than 500fpm my temps change too abrubtly. 1
A64Pilot Posted February 27, 2022 Report Posted February 27, 2022 Mooney’s “speed brakes” are really more spoilers. So they are much more effective in reducing lift than actually slowing you down. Again it’s been a long time but if I remember correctly I really liked them because if you did nothing else but deploy the brakes you got a 500 FPM rate of descent, then upon reaching the new altitude just push the button and stop the descent. School I was in wouldn’t allow their use, just as they made us slow to flap speed and get flaps first, their justification was they weren’t teaching Mooney pilots and majority of aircraft don’t have speed brakes or gear speed that's higher than approach flap speed. But I had some Solo time and used the brakes then. I had never thought about them and ice, but to me ice is an emergency procedure
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