consequences of retracting flaps on roll out!

[David Mazer]

Where was the squat switch in all this (I presume the J has one like my K does)?  If Aaron was really down on his mains when he accidently retracted the gear, why didn't the switch prevent the retraction?

[jetdriven]

only the 1977 J's thru serial number 237 have the squat switch.  They also have the airspeed input like all the other Mooneys do to prevent the gear from retracting below 60 KIAS +/- 5.

EDIT: the airspeed switch is only from S/N 24-0238 onwards.   early Js only have a squat switch.

[David Mazer]

I would like to remind people about the Rocket crash in Augusta, GA in 2011 that looks like a gear up landing followed by an improper prop installation for a ferry to repair several months later that killed the pilot.  All this talk about ferrying a broken plane makes me very nervous.

[David Mazer]

I would like to remind people about the Rocket crash in Augusta, GA in 2011 that looks like a gear up landing followed by an improper prop installation for a ferry to repair several months later that killed the pilot.  All this talk about ferrying a broken plane makes me very nervous.

[jetdriven]

Or just don't touch anything until at taxi speed. The only thing I can think of is the flap lever for a SUPER short approach and this is a nonstandard operation which should include a full briefing for yourself and the nonflying pilot. Of course, You can stop a Mooney in 1200', so is that even necessary?  I admit I do it too, mostly for super short landing practice.   My caveat is that the flap switch is the only thing to touch, its briefed, and keep your hands low.  In a manual gear plane that won't save you.

[eldeano]

Quote: Mazerbase

I would like to remind people about the Rocket crash in Augusta, GA in 2011 that looks like a gear up landing followed by an improper prop installation for a ferry to repair several months later that killed the pilot.  All this talk about ferrying a broken plane makes me very nervous.

[aaronk25]

In regards to the squat switch the only thing i can come up with is I didn' have enough weight on the main gear at the exact point that I activated the gear to retract. I think this was the case becuause the reason I was going to flip the flap switch up in the first place was because the wind gusted just a bit and i felt the mains get just a bit light and I wanted to "dump" the lift. If I would have been a few seconds eariler or later I bet I wouldn't have had this post to share, other than what i "almost did".

 

 

[eldeano]

Quote: 1964-M20E

Sorry to hear about that.  From the photo it looks like you could lift it up and fly it. :-))

 

 

[DrBill]

Quote: Mazerbase

I would like to remind people about the Rocket crash in Augusta, GA in 2011 that looks like a gear up landing followed by an improper prop installation for a ferry to repair several months later that killed the pilot.  All this talk about ferrying a broken plane makes me very nervous.

[201er]

Quick question: was that a '77 or later 201? I wonder if the speed sensing system on a '78 or later 201 would have prevented this? Or was this done still at flying speed?

[jetdriven]

The 77 has the speed sensing and the squat switch on the left main.  It was deleted in mid 77.

 

EDIT: until 24-0237 have the squat switch.  -0238 and after have the airspeed switch.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: pmccand

I bought my M20B (real cheap) from a guy who forgot to get the landing gear up.  It was a 100% manual landing gear and manual (non-hydraulic) flap system, and still the guy failed to lower the gear, (or as he claims, it slipped out of the gear down lock block).  However, it is important to note that before the ferry permit could be issued for us to take it home we had to also comply with a Lycoming prop strike AD that includes the replacement of the rear crank accessory gear bolt.  Engine pull time...

I really feel bad about the gear up, but I learned a really good mental trick from a commercial pilot instructor in my Bonanza to lower the chances of a gear up while handling the flaps after landing and taxi...that trick is to touch, but never operate levers or knobs until you say OUT LOUD the words,

"FLAPS, Identified, FLAPS Verified... coming up" after landing. 

Or, "FLAPS, Identified, FLAPS Verified...coming down" before take off.

Just one extra step turned into a very good habit.

Phil McCand

 

 

[sleepingsquirrel]

 Thanks for the picture. When I bought my Mooney about one year ago I posted a picture like this at my desk at work . I was a real fixed gear Cessna pilot for years and knew that this would be my undoing. Every time I looked at the picture I forced myself to say , "The landing gear is down and locked, the light is green." or else.

[aaronk25]

Quote: 201er

Quick question: was that a '77 or later 201? I wonder if the speed sensing system on a '78 or later 201 would have prevented this? Or was this done still at flying speed?

[David Mazer]

I'm so sorry Aaron.  That looks like a significant amount of damage.  I hope the repairs come in well below the expectation but I'm not sure that is what you want.  Even if the repairs are $65k, you need to remember the decreased value in the plane as it now has damage.  I'm not sure what percentage decrease that would be but it is some.  Also, the damage internally is more disconcerting to me than the external damage and if it is really that significant, I might wonder if it can really be fixed safely.

As to the avionics you just installed, that really hurts.  I'm sure the insurance company will plan on salvaging the plane and those avionics will recover a lot of their costs if they do total it out.  They will be pretty miffed (read this as felony theft) if you remove them without their permission.  They may allow you to buy them back at some discount though.

All in all, what initially is an instant's mistake turns into a huge event. Again.  It may be harder and harder to remember but the important part is that no one was hurt.  Good luck.

[rbridges]

I know it's painful, but could you keep us updated on your situation?  I'd like to see how the whole process unfolds.  Anyway, I hope everything works out for you.

[Shadrach]

Aaron, I'm going to disagree with Mazer here. I think that if you plan on flying the plane for the next 5 years, that this incident will have minimum impact on resale at that time. If you want to sell it just out of the repair shop than yes it will detract from the value.  Many of the planes owned by folks on this boared have spent time on their belly, some even have the logs to prove it. A savvy buyer understands that there's a good chance that a 30 year old retract has some DH. I'd be far more skeptical of someone tying to sell me a 30+ year old plane with NDH than one with well logged repairs. As long as you make sure it's repaired and logged properly, you should be fine in a few years. I'd take a well repaired plane with accurate and realistic logs over the 35 yr old, 4000hr, NDH fairy tale any day...   

[Hank]

I agree with Ross. Mine was geared up almost 5 years before I bought it, and it's coming up on Anniversary #10 now. It was all repaired correctly, with some "free" mods [one piece belly, new bottom antennas, new strobe, etc.], and she sure does fly nice!

[Becca]

Quote: aaronk25

It is a 77 serial number 24-0359 if that helps narrow it down.  I'm guessing my air speed was around 55MPH maybe a little faster.  I don't know exactly because after crossing the numbers I don't spend much time looking at the airspeed as I just set the plane up in the right attitude to land and then she sets down.  I'm glad some of you are finding some value in the form of education from this, it makes it a little less painfull.

Now that they have the plane in the shop and pulled the one piece bell off, or whats left of it they found the gear box for the electric motor is shattered and all the push pull rods that actuate the gear are bent from trying to lift the plane while it was coming down.

What concerns me the most is the mechanic said that the motor appears to have moved to the left and up (if you were sitting in the pilots seat).  It appears there is some marks just above and to the left of the valve cover gasket that wernt there before maybe a indication that the motor mounts or fire wall has been twisted.  It would make sense because the force of the counter clock wise rotation (and at full throttle 2700rpms) would push it this way, if it were to move at all.  Both wing flaps got pushed up because when they towed it in the landing gear didn't stay locked and they dropped it twice, once on both wings.

 

 

 

[DaV8or]

I could be totally wrong here, but judging by the belly pan in the photo, I suspect the plane has had a gear up before. I don't think that's the factory belly pan, but a reinforced aftermarket one. If the plane already has damage history, then perhaps additional damage history won't effect resale all that much. I agree with others though, it takes hundreds of hours in the logbook before damage history begins to fade in the eyes of prospective buyer. If repaired correctly, this plane will be fine and give you decades of good service, so if you're OK with keeping the plane, don't worry about the damage history. Hopefully, a reputable MSC, or Mooney expert is going to do the work. Who is looking at it?

Aaron's story actually gives us all two cautionary things to think about. One is the practice of raising the flaps on roll out and the other is the amount of insurance we carry and also to remember to increase the amount after major upgrades. Someone mentioned this to me and I upped my hull value before my plane even left the avionics shop, cause you never know...

[aaronk25]

Becca,

I would have been better to let the wheels retract and set her in on the belly. There is no way I would have time to shut the engine down, so it would have had a prop strike regardless. I thought I could get her back in the air, but with 50 Gallons of fuel on board it was just more weight that the airspeed would support.

Dav8or, The plane was sold to me reportly as NDH. I just looked up in the log books and the one piece mod was added with some other things, not related to a gear up landing. I wouldn't think it had a gear up as its not reported in the log book but, nothing is for sure right?

The folks at Associated Air in lansing are putting the bid together. There not a MSC, but is very knowledgeable, has the service manuals and takes care a a couple 201s now. I have confidence in them. Its that or we somehow dismantle the plane put it on a truck and ship it somewhere.

 

[David Mazer]

Quote: Shadrach

Aaron, I'm going to disagree with Mazer here.

[thinwing]

Yikes so sorry kpc

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: Mazerbase

Ah.  One of the beauties of this forum are the diversity of opinions.  I will have to admit I am not well versed in the amount of depreciation associated with different types of damage but I know it is some.  I am also not well versed in the diminishing impact of that damage.  It is nice to have others that can help fill the gaps.

[N601RX]

"Both wing flaps got pushed up because when they towed it in the landing gear didn't stay locked and they dropped it twice, once on both wings."

It seems to me the people who moved it may have damaged it as much as the gear up itself.  Any time there is a gear collapse on a mooney on any wheel the overcenter preload is going to be reduced to almost zero on all wheels.  They should have mechanically clamped the wheels down before trying to move it any.  Perhaps their insurance company should pitch in some money.  I hope this isn't the same people who are going to fix it.