Help With Power Settings For Upcoming X-Country

[N201MKTurbo]

6 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Because you own and fly one so you should probably have some idea of power settings?

I would just cruise at 2400 to 2500 RPM where it runs smoothest. As much MP as You can get. 

[GeneralT001]

14 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I would just cruise at 2400 to 2500 RPM where it runs smoothest. As much MP as You can get. 

Thanks. At that RPM I guess I'll be looking for a minimum of 25inches of MP to get 75+ power...so 4500 to 6500 probably...glad its winter

Edited December 16, 2021 by GeneralT001

[takair]

10 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Thanks. At that RPM I guess I'll be looking for a minimum of 25inches of MP to get 75+ power...so 4500 to 6500 probably...glad its winter

Might be slightly lower MAP…. There is a nice app available called Aircraft Power Information.  It does a good job of mimicking the flight manual charts and is easy to use in flight if you are looking for that level of precision.  I used it for a while when I was breaking in the engine.  Allowed you to see what different combinations of MAP, RPm, temp and altitude did.  If nothing else, it broke up the monotony and made me feel good.  

[N201MKTurbo]

10 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Thanks. At that RPM I guess I'll be looking for a minimum of 25inches of MP to get 75+ power...so 4500 to 6500 probably...glad its winter

Yea, you are looking for cylinder pressure, not power. For breakin increasing power by increasing RPM doesn't buy you much. You could probably make a case that running a lower RPM might make for a better breakin. But let's not open that can of worms. The biggest thing is to just fly it without babying it. and avoid low power descents.

Watch your CHTs. If they get above 410 in cruise you should probably add some mixture or reduce the power a bit. When I broke in my engine it was running pretty hot in cruise when it was new, some cylinders ran as high as 425. I have about 60 hours on it now and they are still settling down, but they are all under 375 now.

[1980Mooney]

26 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I would just cruise at 2400 to 2500 RPM where it runs smoothest. As much MP as You can get. 

Exactly  

14 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Thanks. At that RPM I guess I'll be looking for a minimum of 25inches of MP to get 75+ power...so 4500 to 6500 probably...glad its winter

You are not going to get 75% power above 2000 ft. at 2500 RPM.  You will need 2600 RPM or more.

[takair]

18 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Exactly  

You are not going to get 75% power above 2000 ft. at 2500 RPM.  You will need 2600 RPM or more.

Interesting.  To my surprise, the J power charts are pretty different from my E where 2500/24 gives me 77% at 5000 according to the chart.  I had imagined they were closer.  Learned something new….

[carusoam]

8 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Because you own and fly one so you should probably have some idea of power settings?

Mike has read his plane’s POH…

Day three….

Sometimes it’s not what you ask…

But, how you ask it… (mom mentioned this decades ago…)

 

It appears that you asked the right question, just the wrong way…

It comes across that you have less than enough experience to reliably keep from costing yourself a lot of money….

The community rolled out the carpet, and delivered many things to consider…

From direct answers, to the original question… to details about engine care and transition training…

It seems you have accepted every piece of advice….. except one…

 

The objectives of engine break-in are at odds with the objectives of Transition Training…

The delivery flight is a great way to get both engine break-in and training in all the phases of Mooney flight… 

Some MSers have used the delivery flight… or a portion of it, to bring the Mooney CFII along with them and explore the envelope the new Mooney has to offer…. You may need to stop at a decent large airport that has commercial service to ship the CFI back home…

balance the costs of hours of CFII time…. With the costs associated with simple errors that often occur with humans and Mooney flying…

The advantage of bringing a Mooney CFI along…it removes the discomfort of second guessing, or misinterpreting what the airplane is doing…

 

When you are right… it’s like insurance, a complete waste of money…

When you are wrong… the insurance pays out as expected….

 

If you avoid an expensive mis-judgement… it was worth it…

 

Mooney CFIIs are pretty good with their flexibility….

I used one for engine break-in flights…

Used another for delivering and transition training from TX to NJ….

Surprises that came with the transition flight….

An airport that closed due to an accident, while we were there to get lunch and fuel… caused an unexpected hotel stay… a regional jet over ran the end of the runway.

Encountered some icing on an IFR leg… during the instrument approach…more than I had seen before…

 

Surprises that came with engine break-in… high power, low altitude flight… it is easy to exceed maneuvering speed limitations…. And Vne during small descents….

Hoping these details shine a light on things that can be gained before heading out…

MS has seen many pilots of various levels of experience start their new ownership….

Gaining the full experience takes hours, seasons, and different areas of the globe…

Learn as much as you can…

Say thank you often….

Expect to mis interpret something…

Expect to be mis-understood every now and then…

Remember how humans drop the ball every now and then…

 

Don’t be afraid to type a few extra lines up front… to show how much you have thought about the question you are asking… how much you know and understand… will shape the answers you receive…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[1980Mooney]

1 minute ago, takair said:

Interesting.  To my surprise, the J power charts are pretty different from my E where 2500/24 gives me 77% at 5000 according to the chart.  I had imagined they were closer.  Learned something new….

GeneralT001 will get a little boost from the cold temperatures in Canada which I assume will be less than Standard on his trip.  It is just the opposite down here in Houston were it is currently 83 F and setting a new record again almost every day this week.

[GeneralT001]

9 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Mike has read his plane’s POH…

Day three….

Sometimes it’s not what you ask…

But, how you ask it… (mom mentioned this decades ago…)

 

It appears that you asked the right question, just the wrong way…

It comes across that you have less than enough experience to reliably keep from costing yourself a lot of money….

The community rolled out the carpet, and delivered many things to consider…

From direct answers, to the original question… to details about engine care and transition training…

It seems you have accepted every piece of advice….. except one…

 

The objectives of engine break-in are at odds with the objectives of Transition Training…

The delivery flight is a great way to get both engine break-in and training in all the phases of Mooney flight… 

Some MSers have used the delivery flight… or a portion of it, to bring the Mooney CFII along with them and explore the envelope the new Mooney has to offer…. You may need to stop at a decent large airport that has commercial service to ship the CFI back home…

balance the costs of hours of CFII time…. With the costs associated with simple errors that often occur with humans and Mooney flying…

The advantage of bringing a Mooney CFI along…it removes the discomfort of second guessing, or misinterpreting what the airplane is doing…

 

When you are right… it’s like insurance, a complete waste of money…

When you are wrong… the insurance pays out as expected….

 

If you avoid an expensive mis-judgement… it was worth it…

 

Mooney CFIIs are pretty good with their flexibility….

I used one for engine break-in flights…

Used another for delivering and transition training from TX to NJ….

Surprises that came with the transition flight….

An airport that closed due to an accident, while we were there to get lunch and fuel… caused an unexpected hotel stay… a regional jet over ran the end of the runway.

Encountered some icing on an IFR leg… during the instrument approach…more than I had seen before…

 

Surprises that came with engine break-in… high power, low altitude flight… it is easy to exceed maneuvering speed limitations…. And Vne during small descents….

Hoping these details shine a light on things that can be gained before heading out…

MS has seen many pilots of various levels of experience start their new ownership….

Gaining the full experience takes hours, seasons, and different areas of the globe…

Learn as much as you can…

Say thank you often….

Expect to mis interpret something…

Expect to be mis-understood every now and then…

Remember how humans drop the ball every now and then…

 

Don’t be afraid to type a few extra lines up front… to show how much you have thought about the question you are asking… how much you know and understand… will shape the answers you receive…

 

Best regards,

-a-

Oh, if only I had the POH

[takair]

3 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Oh, if only I had the POH

Check out the downloads section.  Very likely there is one there…

[carusoam]

Cold air and low altitude is great for high MP…

Altering RPM changes the way the pistons reach the ends of the stroke…

The break-in instructions usually cover these details nicely… find your engine builder…

POH is a great source of necessary info…

Usually available electronically from Mooney…. Through your favorite MSC…

Get one for the year your plane was built for AW purposes…

See if you can find the most recent one for your plane… often it has more pages, tables and updated information….

There are many POHs in the download section…

They make great reading, it’s educational, and give a resource for performance data…

-a-

[GeneralT001]

7 minutes ago, takair said:

Check out the downloads section.  Very likely there is one there…

Thanks for that...didn't know about that resource...of course a POH for my ser# isn't there...couldn't find one on the net either. Ah well, I'll have plenty of hours to get intimate with it enroute

[GeneralT001]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Cold air and low altitude is great for high MP…

Altering RPM changes the way the pistons reach the ends of the stroke…

The break-in instructions usually cover these details nicely… find your engine builder…

POH is a great source of necessary info…

Usually available electronically from Mooney…. Through your favorite MSC…

Get one for the year your plane was built for AW purposes…

See if you can find the most recent one for your plane… often it has more pages, tables and updated information….

There are many POHs in the download section…

They make great reading, it’s educational, and give a resource for performance data…

-a-

Forgive my ignorance...but won't there be one that comes with the aircraft...specific to that exact aircraft? Guess I'll reach out to the previous owner on that one...I just kinda assumed it was mandatory to have one.

[carusoam]

13 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Forgive my ignorance...but won't there be one that comes with the aircraft...specific to that exact aircraft? Guess I'll reach out to the previous owner on that one...I just kinda assumed it was mandatory to have one.

My first Mooney came with nothing but the tow bar… and a hand made check list that was very incomplete.

 

My second Mooney… came with everything as expected…

One cost as much as my car…

The other cost as much as my house…

 

When buying a used machine…. People often go through the PPI process… to make sure they know what they are getting with that…

Depending on your relationship with the seller… you may be able to get the POH in advance…. Or he may have an electronic copy of it…. And the other logs…

If something can go wrong, it will go wrong… -dad

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[1980Mooney]

15 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Forgive my ignorance...but won't there be one that comes with the aircraft...specific to that exact aircraft? Guess I'll reach out to the previous owner on that one...I just kinda assumed it was mandatory to have one.

 

17 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Thanks for that...didn't know about that resource...of course a POH for my ser# isn't there...couldn't find one on the net either. Ah well, I'll have plenty of hours to get intimate with it enroute

 

26 minutes ago, takair said:

Check out the downloads section.  Very likely there is one there…

It is actually easier than that.  Because of the various Mooney bankruptcies and owners, the POH, Parts Manuals and Service and Maintenance Manual for the J and K are in the public domain.

POH 1977 Rev, 1984 https://www.nqac.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/M20J-POH.pdf

POH 1996 Rev, 1997 https://pilotage.e-monsite.com/medias/files/m20j-poh3203b.pdf

Parts Manual 2003 http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney M20J Illustrated Parts Catalog.pdf

Service Manual 1998 http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney Service Manuel M20J Vol. 1 of 2.pdf

Service Manual Electrical Diagrams http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney Service Manuel M20J Vol. 2 of 2.pdf

also https://www.scribd.com/document/328319136/Mooney-Service-Manuel-M20J-Vol-2-of-2

[GeneralT001]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

My first Mooney came with nothing but the tow bar… and a hand made check list that was very incomplete.

 

My second Mooney… came with everything as expected…

One cost as much as my car…

The other cost as much as my house…

 

When buying a used machine…. People often go through the PPI process… to make sure they know what they are getting with that…

Depending on your relationship with the seller… you may be able to get the POH in advance…. Or he may have an electronic copy of it…. And the other logs…

If something can go wrong, it will go wrong… -dad

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

Thanks. Yes, Clarence has done the Annual and will oversee the flight test, so I should be in very good hands there. As well, the test pilot is very familiar with the Mooney and will provide his input as well.

[GeneralT001]

6 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

It is actually easier than that.  Because of the various Mooney bankruptcies and owners, the POH, Parts Manuals and Service and Maintenance Manual for the J and K are in the public domain.

POH 1977 Rev, 1984 https://www.nqac.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/M20J-POH.pdf

POH 1996 Rev, 1997 https://pilotage.e-monsite.com/medias/files/m20j-poh3203b.pdf

Parts Manual 2003 http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney M20J Illustrated Parts Catalog.pdf

Service Manual 1998 http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney Service Manuel M20J Vol. 1 of 2.pdf

Service Manual Electrical Diagrams http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney Service Manuel M20J Vol. 2 of 2.pdf

also https://www.scribd.com/document/328319136/Mooney-Service-Manuel-M20J-Vol-2-of-2

Thanks for this. Downloading like a fat boy with a pack of smarties

[Aerodon]

I've done this trip several times, Marathon is a good fuel stop with self serve fuel but suffers from lake weather.  Hotel over the road. Geraldton a little further, good service but they wouldn't dispense fuel in alight drizzle.  Dryden OK.  Thunder Bay OK (but was out of Avgas last time I went through).

Kenora is great.  Winnipeg Intl is a good overnight stop, go to the Esso, not the Shell (they call the Esso FBO).  Good hotels and Uber.

Regina also good.  Kreos FBO is great, Uber and hotels.

Lethbridge - another good stop.  Then the mountains....  Last time I went to Calgary for an overnight stop because the wind was howling over the mountains.  I've not had to stop on this leg in the summer, but winter is a big issue with weather and icing.  

I've also done this trip in a C172 from Winchester, WV to Chilliwack.  Got weathered in for a total of 5 days, did the flying in 3 days.  Had -30C temps, cracked all the plastic wing and tail plastic fairings, cabin heater could not keep up.  Had 40-60 kt headwinds.

It's all doable - just make sure no-one is expecting you to be home for Christmas or New Year?

How are you getting your car back, I put one on train for C$1500?

Aerodon (CYPK)

 

[GeneralT001]

1 minute ago, Aerodon said:

I've done this trip several times, Marathon is a good fuel stop with self serve fuel but suffers from lake weather.  Hotel over the road. Geraldton a little further, good service but they wouldn't dispense fuel in alight drizzle.  Dryden OK.  Thunder Bay OK (but was out of Avgas last time I went through).

Kenora is great.  Winnipeg Intl is a good overnight stop, go to the Esso, not the Shell (they call the Esso FBO).  Good hotels and Uber.

Regina also good.  Kreos FBO is great, Uber and hotels.

Lethbridge - another good stop.  Then the mountains....  Last time I went to Calgary for an overnight stop because the wind was howling river the mountains.  I've not had to stop on this leg in the summer, but winter is a big issue with weather and icing.  

I've also done this trip in a C172 from Winchester, WV to Chilliwack.  Got weathered in for a total of 5 days, did the flying in 3 days.  Had -30C temps, cracked all the plastic wing and tailpipes, cabin heater could not keep up.  Had 40-60 kt headwinds.

It's all doable - just make sure no-one is expecting you to be home for Christmas or New Year?

How are you getting you car back, I put one on train for C$1500?

Aerodon (CYPK)

 

Thanks. Yes, I was opting for either Kenora or Winnipeg for the 1st leg...depending on how the day goes. I've lived in Winnipeg as well.

I've given myself 3 full weeks (the drive out will eat up at least 5 of those days). The car is a rental that I'll be leaving in Windsor. I'm hoping to avoid temp extremes as much as possible....heres hoping for a January thaw

Appreciate the info and will print it off.

[GeneralT001]

Interesting....one POH says max gross weight of 2740lbs and the later POH says 2900lbs?

[carusoam]

The POH is required for AW…

One of the FAA’s ARROW documents you are probably familiar with…  CAA(?)

 

If it is SN specific, typical of Mooneys built in the 90s… it will be expensive to replace….

If you own the plane… having the manual shipped, is a great idea…

 

Use caution shipping important items… FedEx lost a Mooney sensor for me that caused much heart ache… traced to the point it went missing… 

Spend the extra to not lose it… tough time of year for shipping small items.

 

If you don’t own the plane yet, the electronic copy of a similar one can help…

 

SN specific ones have much additional info for AP operations and GPS and other technologies…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Speaking of serial number specific info…

There is a known break in the serial numbers… above the limit, there were structural tube differences allowing for the higher MGTOW….

Below the limit, there is a specific STC that allows for the higher MGTOW… it comes with an IO550 and is called a Missile.

 

M20Js evolved a lot over their history…. Got better every year…

Some upgrades are easy, others are more expensive…

Start with finding out what SN you have…

Best regards,

-a-

[1980Mooney]

10 minutes ago, GeneralT001 said:

Interesting....one POH says max gross weight of 2740lbs and the later POH says 2900lbs?

STC for Serial # 24-1686 and above only.  Mooney increased the thickness of one of the tubulars in the steel frame from that serial number and up.

M20J-Gross-Weight-Increase-SL92-1-1.pdf (mooney.com)

 

[hais]

2 hours ago, takair said:

Might be slightly lower MAP…. There is a nice app available called Aircraft Power Information.  It does a good job of mimicking the flight manual charts and is easy to use in flight if you are looking for that level of precision.  I used it for a while when I was breaking in the engine.  Allowed you to see what different combinations of MAP, RPm, temp and altitude did.  If nothing else, it broke up the monotony and made me feel good.  

Can you share the link to the app @takair?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, GeneralT001 said:

Oh, if only I had the POH

I’ll send you an electronic copy.  Then you’ll be so prepared for the trip!