Mooney factory for sale

[WilliamR]

On 10/26/2021 at 7:00 PM, M20Doc said:

Don’t leave the forum on account of one person.  I don’t own a Mooney but I hang out here from time to time.  If you come across someone disagreeable, consider the ignore feature.

Clarence

Thanks to all.  Noted and done.

[aviatoreb]

57 minutes ago, WilliamR said:

Thanks to all.  Noted and done.

All airplane fans are welcome!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, WilliamR said:

Thanks to all.  Noted and done.

Now if we could get you into a nice Piper your life would be complete!

Clarence

[cirrostratus]

Why is it that going higher, more expensive and complex is the holy grail? Why not refresh the 201, try to lower the price point rather than increase it, build in volume like Cirrus rather than going for a niche. Where did the Mooney that built thousands of airframes go?

[ZuluZulu]

1 hour ago, cirrostratus said:

Where did the Mooney that built thousands of airframes go?

Buried under what it now costs to build airframes the way they do. 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, ZuluZulu said:

Buried under what it now costs to build airframes the way they do. 

And, how is the Mooney method any different than that used by Cessna, Beech, and Piper?  Aren't they all hand assembled riveted aluminum?

[DCarlton]

15 hours ago, cirrostratus said:

Why is it that going higher, more expensive and complex is the holy grail? Why not refresh the 201, try to lower the price point rather than increase it, build in volume like Cirrus rather than going for a niche. Where did the Mooney that built thousands of airframes go?

Exactly.  Bring back the 201 or 205 and nothing more.  Look for improvements in the design to simplify manufacturing and assembly.  Automate where you can.  If you absolutely have to do it to survive, outsource some of the manufacturing overseas and perform final assembly in the US (by a US company).  

[MooneyMitch]

18 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Exactly.  Bring back the 201 or 205 and nothing more.  Look for improvements in the design to simplify manufacturing and assembly.  Automate where you can.  If you absolutely have to do it to survive, outsource some of the manufacturing overseas and perform final assembly in the US (by a US company).  

Ho hummmmmmm........ nice weather we’re having today..... 

[DCarlton]

6 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Ho hummmmmmm........ nice weather we’re having today..... 

Don't like that suggestion?  Airplanes aren't that complicated.  Should they cost $1M?  I think a new 201 would be a great thing.  

[MooneyMitch]

30 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Don't like that suggestion?  Airplanes aren't that complicated.  Should they cost $1M?  I think a new 201 would be a great thing.  

Of course I like the idea of any new Mooney being produced.

My comment is based on the fact that this topic has been discussed numerous times here, there and everywhere.

Without going into parts of the discussions, the main issue is it would cost nearly the same to produce the J as any other new Mooney.  

[DCarlton]

3 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Of course I like the idea of any new Mooney being produced.

My comment is based on the fact that this topic has been discussed numerous times here, there and everywhere.

Without going into parts of the discussions, the main issue is it would cost nearly the same to produce the J as any other new Mooney.  

It has been interesting to see opinions.  Need a scorecard.  I think your "main issue" is the main engineering challenge.  There should be enough smart people out there to figure out how to get manufacturing costs down without selling out to the Chinese.  US manufacturers have been struggling for a long time to stay in business and be competitive.  We've gotta figure that out.  Enough companies have folded or been bought out by foreign entities.  

[LANCECASPER]

33 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

It has been interesting to see opinions.  Need a scorecard.  I think your "main issue" is the main engineering challenge.  There should be enough smart people out there to figure out how to get manufacturing costs down without selling out to the Chinese.  US manufacturers have been struggling for a long time to stay in business and be competitive.  We've gotta figure that out.  Enough companies have folded or been bought out by foreign entities.  

Back in the late 90's the Dopp family, who owned Mooney at the time, when J and K were discontinued scrapped all of the tooling for them. It would take millions in tooling to start producing Js or Ks.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

It has been interesting to see opinions.  Need a scorecard.  I think your "main issue" is the main engineering challenge.  There should be enough smart people out there to figure out how to get manufacturing costs down without selling out to the Chinese.  US manufacturers have been struggling for a long time to stay in business and be competitive.  We've gotta figure that out.  Enough companies have folded or been bought out by foreign entities.  

It's pretty tough to compete with offshore labor rates, no EPA, no OSHA,...and here, flipping burgers pays $15/hr, let alone what a skilled aircraft worker would make.  I just don't see how any amount of 'smart people' are going to figure that out!  The volume, even in the best of times, was never there to invest in any kind effective automation.

[Schllc]

Just like closing the door on a nice car or working the action on a well made firearm, when your fingers and senses encounter a well made machine you know you are touching quality .  
And when you close the door on a Kia, or work the action on a Chinese sks, you know that too. 
 

I believe the Mooney took all those man hours to assemble.
I believe they couldn’t make money at even a million unless they were making thousands.  I believe they had a flawed business model and people with passion kept trying to make a go.
Today’s Mooney owners are the beneficiaries of those mistakes and ambitions.

The cirrus is not a piece of machinery made to last.  It may be made  well enough to serve its purpose, but when you get in it and you fly it, it doesn’t feel like a well made piece of machinery. It feels cheap.

Cirrus figured out how to do it economically, efficiently and attractive enough to dominate the market, no one can honestly deny the achievement. 
Much respect to them for that.

However, i am glad I’m fortunate enough to have my Mooney which is a damn fine piece of machinery...

The sad reality is that even Cirrus is likely doomed, because the younger generations just don’t want to fly.  Less than 500 planes a year, worldwide?  These numbers do not inspire confidence. 
The entire culture is trending to virtual experiences and avoiding real interactions.  
If it weren’t for the training demand for airline, even Cirrus couldn’t save the industry. 
General aviation is on life support, and has been for a long time. 
It’s really sad, but where am I wrong?

[aviatoreb]

12 hours ago, Schllc said:

Just like closing the door on a nice car or working the action on a well made firearm, when your fingers and senses encounter a well made machine you know you are touching quality .  
And when you close the door on a Kia, or work the action on a Chinese sks, you know that too. 
 

I believe the Mooney took all those man hours to assemble.
I believe they couldn’t make money at even a million unless they were making thousands.  I believe they had a flawed business model and people with passion kept trying to make a go.
Today’s Mooney owners are the beneficiaries of those mistakes and ambitions.

The cirrus is not a piece of machinery made to last.  It may be made  well enough to serve its purpose, but when you get in it and you fly it, it doesn’t feel like a well made piece of machinery. It feels cheap.

Cirrus figured out how to do it economically, efficiently and attractive enough to dominate the market, no one can honestly deny the achievement. 
Much respect to them for that.

However, i am glad I’m fortunate enough to have my Mooney which is a damn fine piece of machinery...

The sad reality is that even Cirrus is likely doomed, because the younger generations just don’t want to fly.  Less than 500 planes a year, worldwide?  These numbers do not inspire confidence. 
The entire culture is trending to virtual experiences and avoiding real interactions.  
If it weren’t for the training demand for airline, even Cirrus couldn’t save the industry. 
General aviation is on life support, and has been for a long time. 
It’s really sad, but where am I wrong?

You said several things in this post, and I found myself agreeing emphatically with each and every one of your points.

I will ad that I also love owning my finely built machine that is just a beautiful example of design, AND workmanship.  So I enjoy it beyond using it.  I enjoy it for just having such a fine machine in my hangar.  I so often look back at the hangar as the electric door is closing as I am walking away. I don't do that with a lot of things I have.

I was at a conference in Dresden Germany about 2 years ago and I took a day driving around Saxony and stopped and toured the Glashutte watch factory.  Factory is an exaggeration.  It is a shop where a few craftsman make watches from raw metal with hand tools.  They make all those little gears and I mean LITTLE gears to amazing high precision and they assemble these things in what is a year long process from design to delivery.  And I mean design - you want a custom watch with all sorts of complications and you have 2 million euros, then they will design a one off watch for you, to look and do whatever you want.  That money is employing many many craftsmen for a year.  My favorite wow moment besides seeing the gears and realizing they are made by hand, is the assembly table which is a high table with a bite plate - the craftsman bits the table to steady their head while looking through a magnifying glass and with their two hands putting it together.  Every year they have a bunch of "kids" sign up to become apprentices at the factory and only a small fraction make it through the 10 year process of graduating to master craftsmen.  Currently, there are enough absurdly rich people in the world who want to buy 2 million euro watches.  So the factory continues beyond reason, since the watch I have on my wrist, a $400 dollar lovely citizen watch with a titanium case, looks good, functions great and is assembled by machine.  Unfortunately hand built airplanes occupy this same space - I guess like a rolls Royce car too.  But they are so expensive now that a large fraction of those people who can afford this are just buying a jet.

I agree Cirrus is occupying a market place space that I am not imagining will exist in 10 (20?) years. I think - We will all be flying around in "urban mobility" quad-copter uber things.  Kids won't be dreaming to fly.

The classic story from business school/evolve or die is the buggy whip company (can't remember the name of the company or even if its real or just an urban legend).  So I will tell a made up version of the general story - The best buggy whip company in the world by 1900 made absolutely the best whips.  The lanyard part made of fine leather, carefully threaded and tapered to make for a lovely whip action snap (breaking the sound barrier at the tip!) with a gorgeous handle that fits the hand just so.  They had hundreds of craftsman who made these whips and spent their careers mastering their craft and improving the design so that by 1900 if you wanted the best of the best whip to steer your horse drawn carriage, you went to this company.  Then one day, no one wanted whips anymore.  And the company died.

I see no hope that GA will survive in any currently recognizable form.  That is evolution of technology.  I am hoping that GA will survive, meaning parts and fuel, to keep it going so at least to be accessible that I (we) might enjoy it through our natural healthy flying days.  I think that is the most we can reasonably hope for.

Edited October 31, 2021 by aviatoreb

[DCarlton]

There is some hope with the rate Vans is selling kits.  Sling seems to be doing well too.  

[MooneyMitch]

14 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Back in the late 90's the Dopp family, who owned Mooney at the time, when J and K were discontinued scrapped all of the tooling for them. It would take millions in tooling to start producing Js or Ks.

During the production of the movie Boots, I asked Bill Wheat that very question.  He said that was a myth.

[toto]

25 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

There is some hope with the rate Vans is selling kits.  Sling seems to be doing well too.  

I honestly can't imagine that kids are losing interest in flying.  I suspect that some of the passion about experimentals is that they come at a much lower price point for the same performance as certified aircraft.  And it might be that kit sales increase as builders sell their planes to new aircraft owners and the sellers want to build another one.

[LANCECASPER]

47 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

During the production of the movie Boots, I asked Bill Wheat that very question.  He said that was a myth.

Hmm ok, I heard Tom Bowen mention that once. I always wondered about that since that would prevent them from making replacement parts.

[aviatoreb]

23 minutes ago, toto said:

I honestly can't imagine that kids are losing interest in flying.  I suspect that some of the passion about experimentals is that they come at a much lower price point for the same performance as certified aircraft.  And it might be that kit sales increase as builders sell their planes to new aircraft owners and the sellers want to build another one.

There is certainly the kit airplane builder pilot who builds and airplane so they can fly the very machine they built. I would do it myself if I didn't know how crappy my own workmanship is! (I am smarter than to ever fly something I myself built!  I don't mean that about most people - I am just saying that about me).

But there is also the kit builder who just likes to build stuff.  Like a model train builder, etc.  I see that generally in my middle son who finds airplanes to be fantastically interesting and also has built also sorts of things for his research in aeronautical engineering, sensors, force balance, electronics, optical elements for testing theories in fluid dynamics.  He is getting his PhD now in aeronautical engineering.  Yet he doesn't seem to be interested in actually flying.  he just likes the idea of it.  Still if there were a lot of kids like him, I think the future would be bright for aeronautical engineering.

I think a lot people look at airplanes now like they look at their lawn mowers.  Not particularly interesting but they understand someone builds them.  And they may need one.  Just as happy to hire someone else to mow their lawn.  far from the era of right stuff legend.

I grew up building and flying model airplanes.  How many kids do that anymore?  How many here on Mooneyspace grew up doing that - I bet a lot of us.

[toto]

13 hours ago, Schllc said:

I believe the Mooney took all those man hours to assemble.
I believe they couldn’t make money at even a million unless they were making thousands.  I believe they had a flawed business model and people with passion kept trying to make a go.

The strange thing about it is that the basic manufacturing process has never changed for the M20.  It took a lot of time to build them in the 70's, and it takes a lot of time to build them today.  They never really sold enough aircraft to introduce a wildly different production line - it's been a lot of manual steps from the beginning.

And I know this has been discussed a million times on MS, but if the line workers aren't making substantially more money today than they were in the 70's, and the manufacturing process hasn't changed, then why is manufacturing them today a guaranteed failure when it was (at least theoretically) profitable in the 70's?

Liability is obviously some part of it - estimated to be 30% ish of the total cost of a new aircraft.  And the component manufacturers are probably doing lower volume than they once were, so the cost of the components goes up.

But anyway - we often discuss here how it's not possible to profitably build a plane that takes 5000 hours to produce, and we often talk about how the 5000 hours by itself is the lion's share of the new aircraft price.  But I've always struggled to understand how those numbers produced profit for Mooney in the 70's and a guaranteed loss for Mooney today.

For the J model, the intro price was about $41k in 1977, which is about $189k today.  It's widely assumed here on MS that you couldn't sell a J today because the retail price would be far too expensive for the performance it buys (cf an SR-20 at $487k).  But if the 5000 hours is the big problem, the $300k delta is still hard for me to get my head around - given that the 5000 hours hasn't changed and wages haven't gone up.

Ref: 
http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

 

[toto]

21 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I grew up building and flying model airplanes.  How many kids do that anymore?  How many here on Mooneyspace grew up doing that - I bet a lot of us.

It's interesting.  I've always understood the mid-20th century success of GA to result from returning WWII servicemen who developed a passion for aviation in the service and wanted to continue that passion in civilian life.  But the peak of GA piston sales was in the late 70's, 30 years after the war ended.

So you've got to think that some of the 1970's success was early Boomer kids who inherited their parents' passion for aviation and went to buy their own airplanes.

What happened after that?  Did the Gen X kids not inherit that aviation passion?  Or their kids?

I dunno, but I keep thinking that it's more about the price of admission than lack of interest.

[EricJ]

49 minutes ago, toto said:

It's interesting.  I've always understood the mid-20th century success of GA to result from returning WWII servicemen who developed a passion for aviation in the service and wanted to continue that passion in civilian life.  But the peak of GA piston sales was in the late 70's, 30 years after the war ended.

So you've got to think that some of the 1970's success was early Boomer kids who inherited their parents' passion for aviation and went to buy their own airplanes.

What happened after that?  Did the Gen X kids not inherit that aviation passion?  Or their kids?

I dunno, but I keep thinking that it's more about the price of admission than lack of interest.

A change in liability laws stopped production of GA aircraft for a couple decades.   That probably put a damper on it.

[toto]

14 minutes ago, EricJ said:

A change in liability laws stopped production of GA aircraft for a couple decades.   That probably put a damper on it.

Well, yes - somewhat. Cessna and Piper stopped making SEP aircraft from 86-96 or so, and that certainly had some impact. The General Aviation Revitalization Act got them back in the game.

Other manufacturers never stopped making SEP aircraft, but unfortunately the relative lack of competition didn’t translate into a huge increase in sales for Mooney afaict. 

[Mooney 217RN]

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again.  Mooney probably made the very best quality aircraft in its class.  But the company made two mistakes.  First off it stopped manufacturing their entry level model, the 201.  My first M20 was an E Model.  They probably shouldn’t have discontinued that.  By failing to manufacturer the “lower end” they wiped out generations of buyers.  Nobody coming out of a 172 with 250hrs is going into an Ovation or Acclaim.  But you can easily be a low time pilot and get into a 201, learn it, and fly it.  No flight school is going to have an Acclaim or Ovation on their flight line.  But I have seen E Models, 201’s and even an M20S at flight schools.

Finally, Mooney has been absolutely horrible at marketing their product.  They’ve relied on outside sales reps which is always a recipe for failure.

combine these two basic business shortcomings, and well, we are where we are...