Updating the yokes

[Greg Ellis]

Is it possible to put later model yokes on a 1963 C model?  I am looking to update what I have to something later that can incorporate the controls that may be needed on the yoke for when I install the Garmin GFC500 that I have currently ordered and paid for but am running into issues with the trim on the older C models (apparently Garmin did not do all the homework needed for the old C models).  I also would like to incorporate a push to talk switch into the yoke instead of having the Teleset Push to talk velcroed to the yoke.  It works great but if one could be incorporated into the yoke, I would prefer that.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

[skydvrboy]

I think your yokes are the same as mine.  When one of mine cracked, I looked at replacing them with newer yokes and found that the shaft is a different diameter.  It's doable, but you have to replace both yoke and shaft, so the price is a bit more.

As for the PTT switch, my A&P built a little bracket to go around the old clock hole that holds the PTT in a very convenient place for my left thumb.  Another option, especially since you're upgrading to an autopilot, is to put the PTT in the hole where the PC disconnect valve was located.  If you put the PTT in the old PC spot, perhaps a bracket like mentioned could hold the trim switch?

[Greg Ellis]

13 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I think your yokes are the same as mine.  When one of mine cracked, I looked at replacing them with newer yokes and found that the shaft is a different diameter.  It's doable, but you have to replace both yoke and shaft, so the price is a bit more.

As for the PTT switch, my A&P built a little bracket to go around the old clock hole that holds the PTT in a very convenient place for my left thumb.  Another option, especially since you're upgrading to an autopilot, is to put the PTT in the hole where the PC disconnect valve was located.  If you put the PTT in the old PC spot, perhaps a bracket like mentioned could hold the trim switch?

Thanks for the response.  However, the 63 C model, at least mine, did not come with the PC so no PC disconnect hole.  Just a solid yoke.

[KSMooniac]

Greg, you should be able to upgrade to later, but you'll need the shafts and hardware as mentioned. Start scrounging for salvage parts. It's a nice upgrade.

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[Skates97]

If you go to the newer ones you have to replace the yoke (control wheel), the shafts, and the actual yoke (#1) in the picture because of the way the control shafts mount. I upgraded mine to some off an M20R. I have my old ones just sitting in the hangar and there is a push to talk wired into the LH yoke. If you're interested we could work something out. I can send you pictures probably this weekend of it.

 

[Skates97]

 

[Greg Ellis]

Thanks for the responses.  Thanks to @Skates97 for the incredibly detailed response.  I may leave well enough alone for right now until I get farther into the install of the GFC 500 in my airplane.

[Rusty Pilot]

Yes, I have a 1974 C and purchased a set of used 201 yokes and shafts used.  I had them wrapped by Hector Aerocomfort and installed.  I haven't seen the finish product yet, but plan on picking my plane up from annual as soon as this weekend.  I had the wrapped yokes delivered to my house.  They look great.  For some reason the vintage yokes look especially dated to me.

[EricJ]

When people do this mod is it done with a 337 citing the Mooney factory kit or something?

 

[carusoam]

Mooney parts and Mooney drawings…

Lots of small details like Richard outlined…

Finding parts…. Start with @Alan Fox

 

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[Bob R]

4 hours ago, Skates97 said:

If you go to the newer ones you have to replace the yoke (control wheel), the shafts, and the actual yoke (#1) in the picture because of the way the control shafts mount. I upgraded mine to some off an M20R. I have my old ones just sitting in the hangar and there is a push to talk wired into the LH yoke. If you're interested we could work something out. I can send you pictures probably this weekend of it.

 

I just purchased a set of J model yokes. I plan to install them on my 69E model using the same shafts. SB20-205B has a parts list which will remove the AD. Has anyone completed this project using their existing shafts? They are all 3/4” OD, right? I know I’ll have to have my original shafts drilled with a 90° offset of the original holes. I’m just looking for any experienced guidance.

[Skates97]

The OD is the same on all the shafts. The later model's had a thicker shaft, smaller ID, which is why they don't have the AD that the thin wall shafts have. 

[Alan Fox]

4 hours ago, Bob R said:

I just purchased a set of J model yokes. I plan to install them on my 69E model using the same shafts. SB20-205B has a parts list which will remove the AD. Has anyone completed this project using their existing shafts? They are all 3/4” OD, right? I know I’ll have to have my original shafts drilled with a 90° offset of the original holes. I’m just looking for any experienced guidance.

You cant just drill them 90 degrees off... You would need a DAR to sign off on it , and he wont..

[Bob R]

2 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

You cant just drill them 90 degrees off... You would need a DAR to sign off on it , and he wont..

DAR? If the service bulletin is followed with the bushings, any IA should be able to sign off I believe. I’d like to fild some later model shafts ideally. Anyone have a pair?

[Alan Fox]

I just looked at the SB , I dont think you realize the newer style yokes are drilled 90 degrees off the old style , It will definitely work , legality is the question , I think the newer shafts are going to be an easier score , than the bushings ...

 

 

[Bob R]

47 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

I just looked at the SB , I dont think you realize the newer style yokes are drilled 90 degrees off the old style , It will definitely work , legality is the question , I think the newer shafts are going to be an easier score , than the bushings ...

 

 

Hi Alan,

You could be right. Ideally, I’m hoping to find some later shafts with the thicker wall.

[JimB]

Just a question on this. For those that have replaced the shafts with parts from a later model Mooney are you still accomplishing the inspection or did you get an FAA AMOC to terminate the inspections required by AD 77-17-04? 

Edited October 15, 2021 by JimB

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, JimB said:

Just a question on this. For those that have replaced the shafts with parts from a later model Mooney are you still accomplishing the inspection or did you get an FAA AMOC to terminate the inspections required by AD 77-17-04? 

I believe the AD would be signed off as N/A due to part number of the shaft installed.  

I have a few ADs on my plane that are signed off that way each annual. 

[JimB]

14 minutes ago, kpaul said:

I believe the AD would be signed off as N/A due to part number of the shaft installed.  

I have a few ADs on my plane that are signed off that way each annual. 

I'm not sure how you would do that. It isn't "Not Applicable". The AD is applicable to all M20, M20A, M20B, M20C, M20D, M20E, M20F, and M20G airplanes. It really has nothing to do with the PN of the shaft. And I am not sure how you would sign it off as "Terminated" since you technically aren't complying with the SB as required by the AD. The SB states to replace the shafts with very specific part number shafts.

You could certainly ask the FAA to Approve an Alternative Methods of Compliance  AMOC to terminate the AD based on replacing the shafts with a later model part but then you will get in to telling the FAA that you replaced a part in the airplane with a part that isn't specifically approved for that model. Don't get me wrong, I could certainly install a later model shaft in the aircraft and could in good conscious call it a minor modification but I am not sure I would want go there with the FAA directly. I think I would just continue to do the inspections.

 

Applies to Models M20, M20A, M20B, M20C, M20D, M20E, M20F, and M20G airplanes, certificated in all categories with over 1000 hours' time in service.
Compliance required within the next 30 days after the effective date of this AD, unless already accomplished within the last 250 hours' time in service and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 500 hours' time in service from the last inspection.
To prevent failure of the control wheel shaft due to cracking with associated crack growth, accomplish the following:
(a) Remove the RH and LH control wheels and inspect the aft two inches of the control wheel shaft for cracks (particularly at the attachment holes for the wheel). Use visual and dye penetrant inspection methods.
(b) Replace or modify any cracked shafts with new original configuration shafts or with the strengthened configurations described in Mooney Service Bulletin M20-205B dated May 3, 1978, before further flight.
(c) Reinstall the RH and LH control wheels.
(d) Replacement of parts required by paragraph (b) with new original configuration parts will permit the establishment of new initial inspection times for the inspections of paragraph (a). The new initial inspection time is 1,000 hours' time in service after parts replacement. Replacement or modification of parts required by paragraph (b) with the strengthened configurations described in Mooney Service Bulletin M20-205B will remove the requirement for the 500-hour repetitive inspections.

[steingar]

I was wondering about the auto trim and my Mooney.  I figured the force involved would be too much for any servo. That's OK, I can't afford a new autopilot anyway.

 

[jamesm]

Here is what I did please excuse the blurry picture.

James '67C

[Skates97]

10 hours ago, JimB said:

I'm not sure how you would do that. It isn't "Not Applicable". The AD is applicable to all M20, M20A, M20B, M20C, M20D, M20E, M20F, and M20G airplanes. It really has nothing to do with the PN of the shaft. And I am not sure how you would sign it off as "Terminated" since you technically aren't complying with the SB as required by the AD. The SB states to replace the shafts with very specific part number shafts.

You could certainly ask the FAA to Approve an Alternative Methods of Compliance  AMOC to terminate the AD based on replacing the shafts with a later model part but then you will get in to telling the FAA that you replaced a part in the airplane with a part that isn't specifically approved for that model. Don't get me wrong, I could certainly install a later model shaft in the aircraft and could in good conscious call it a minor modification but I am not sure I would want go there with the FAA directly. I think I would just continue to do the inspections.

 

Applies to Models M20, M20A, M20B, M20C, M20D, M20E, M20F, and M20G airplanes, certificated in all categories with over 1000 hours' time in service.
Compliance required within the next 30 days after the effective date of this AD, unless already accomplished within the last 250 hours' time in service and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 500 hours' time in service from the last inspection.
To prevent failure of the control wheel shaft due to cracking with associated crack growth, accomplish the following:
(a) Remove the RH and LH control wheels and inspect the aft two inches of the control wheel shaft for cracks (particularly at the attachment holes for the wheel). Use visual and dye penetrant inspection methods.
(b) Replace or modify any cracked shafts with new original configuration shafts or with the strengthened configurations described in Mooney Service Bulletin M20-205B dated May 3, 1978, before further flight.
(c) Reinstall the RH and LH control wheels.
(d) Replacement of parts required by paragraph (b) with new original configuration parts will permit the establishment of new initial inspection times for the inspections of paragraph (a). The new initial inspection time is 1,000 hours' time in service after parts replacement. Replacement or modification of parts required by paragraph (b) with the strengthened configurations described in Mooney Service Bulletin M20-205B will remove the requirement for the 500-hour repetitive inspections.

I think you have answered your own question. In M20-205B it specifies part numbers. I would have to look in my logs but I think my AP/IA wrote something about termination of the AD with installation of shafts (part numbers listed).

If you replace the old shafts with the newer shafts that are not subject to the SB then you remove the requirement for the inspections. You are also replacing parts on an M20 (insert model #) with parts from an M20 (insert model #) which for my AP/IA that was good enough for a minor modification.

 

SBM20-205B.pdf

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I think you have answered your own question. In M20-205B it specifies part numbers. I would have to look in my logs but I think my AP/IA wrote something about termination of the AD with installation of shafts (part numbers listed).

If you replace the old shafts with the newer shafts that are not subject to the SB then you remove the requirement for the inspections. You are also replacing parts on an M20 (insert model #) with parts from an M20 (insert model #) which for my AP/IA that was good enough for a minor modification.

 

SBM20-205B.pdf 1.25 MB · 0 downloads

I like that!! My 1970 C is eligible for "repair" rather than replacement of the shafts!  

Always gotta read the fine print and check the details. 

[Hector]

Seen these on a Mooney and they look great


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[EricJ]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I think you have answered your own question. In M20-205B it specifies part numbers. I would have to look in my logs but I think my AP/IA wrote something about termination of the AD with installation of shafts (part numbers listed).

If you replace the old shafts with the newer shafts that are not subject to the SB then you remove the requirement for the inspections. You are also replacing parts on an M20 (insert model #) with parts from an M20 (insert model #) which for my AP/IA that was good enough for a minor modification.

 

SBM20-205B.pdf 1.25 MB · 1 download

That covers the shafts, but I'm wondering about yokes?    There are several factory retrofit kits that I'm guessing get cited, but I'm still wondering whether they require a 337:

Control Wheels 940021-501 New style control wheels, shafts and hardware. Has provisions for
switches
M20 1001 - 1200, M20A 1201 - 1700, M20B 1701 - 1851,
1853 - 1923, M20C 1852, 1940 - 2741, 2743 - 2806, M20D
101 - 260 M20E 101 - 399, 401 -
466
Control Wheels 940021-503 With electric P.C. cut off valve, new style control wheels and shafts.
Has provisions for switches.
M20C 2742, 2807 - 3342, 3344 - 3445, 3447 - 3460, M20E
400, 470 - 1217, 1219 - 1221, 1223 - 1308, M20F 660002 -
660004
Control Wheels 940021-505 With electric P.C. cut off valve, new style control wheels and shafts.
Has provisions for switches.
M20C 3343, 3446 - 20-0009, 20-0011 - 20-0046, M20E 1218,
1222, 1309 - 21-0037, 21-0039 - 21-0060, M20F 670001 - 22-
0078, M20G 680001 - 700006
Control Wheels 940021-507 New style control wheels, shafts and hardware. Has provisions for
switches
M20C 20-0010, 20-1147 - 20-1185, M20E 21-0038, 21-1161 -
21-1180, M20F 22-1179 - 22-1245, 22-1247 - 22-1305