Pilot boy Posted June 22, 2021 Report Posted June 22, 2021 So my 64 M20E is having fuel gauge issues and I’m thinking of going digital. What’s a good option for fuel gauges and digital sending units? I want to do it as cheap as possible (lol I know, I know). I have a JPI 700 w fuel flow but not a lot of panel space. Don’t really care to do the JPI 900 as it’d be about $9k installed they’re telling me. Suggestions for a good little gauge I can put in like the Hobbs meter slot? i have O & N fuel bladders also so I’m not sure if the STC Sa2350SE gives any exemptions for some inaccuracy with the fuel gauges? If anyone can shed light in that would appreciate it. I will probably call the STC holder tomorrow. Quote
A64Pilot Posted June 22, 2021 Report Posted June 22, 2021 (edited) Don’t tell anyone but my gauges appear to be inop too. I also have the bladders. Funny thing is the only aircraft fuel gauges that I have ever had that I trusted and knew was accurate is my original 1946 Cessna ones, mechanical gauges like a lawnmower mounted in the tank and visible at the wing root inside of the cockpit. ‘I put an MVP-50 in my maule and it seemed to be real accurate, but a totalizing fuel flow meter is I believe the ultimate fuel gauge, just write down how much you used from each tank when you change tanks, then you know really how much is in each tank. ‘If you find a good answer please post, because I may follow your lead, but I fear there is nothing more affordable than fixing your stock gauges Edited June 22, 2021 by A64Pilot 1 Quote
cferr59 Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) What about this with CiES Senders: http://www.aerospacelogic.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=249 Looks like it will end up below 2k for parts. PIREP: I have CiES senders and a JPI 930. They are very accurate. Edited June 23, 2021 by cferr59 2 Quote
carusoam Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 Cies and aerospace logics is the low cost way of going digital fuel level… the Ceis floats are one step better than the existing float system… Better accuracy, and when paired to a digital digital display, it doesn’t get much better than that… If you have any questions… we have the Cies guy around here… Nothing beats a FF/totalizer… but, having decent fuel level info available is good for the heart and mind… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Pilot boy Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 22 minutes ago, cferr59 said: What about this with CiES Senders: http://www.aerospacelogic.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=249 Looks like it will end up below 2k for parts. PIREP: I have CiES senders and a JPI 930. They are very accurate. I have a fuel flow meter on my JPI 700 and it’s insanely accurate I’m more trying to be compliant and/or if I have a leak in tank mid flight, it’s be good to know lol Quote
Pilot boy Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 17 minutes ago, carusoam said: Cies and aerospace logics is the low cost way of going digital fuel level… the Ceis floats are one step better than the existing float system… Better accuracy, and when paired to a digital digital display, it doesn’t get much better than that… If you have any questions… we have the Cies guy around here… Nothing beats a FF/totalizer… but, having decent fuel level info available is good for the heart and mind… Best regards, -a- Yeah I have the FF thru the JPI. 700. Just want gauges to work better. It’s in the shop now but they’re having heck of if time with the analog original system. 1 Quote
Pilot boy Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 27 minutes ago, cferr59 said: What about this with CiES Senders: http://www.aerospacelogic.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=249 Looks like it will end up below 2k for parts. PIREP: I have CiES senders and a JPI 930. They are very accurate. This looks like a great product and the pricing is good too. I like it! Quote
carusoam Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 Many forever-planes have gone with the Ceis floats connected to their engine monitor… Best regards, -a- Quote
ArtVandelay Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 If you have the JPI 700, the CHT and EGT probes are the same, as well as the FF IIRC. So they can be reuse and the cables are identical, additional cables are needed for the extra sensors. Sounds like your quote was for a virgin installation. Itcould be the senders or the gauge. Senders can be checked with a ohmmeter. Quote
cferr59 Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 Just now, Pilot boy said: This looks like a great product and the pricing is good too. I like it! If you think your senders are ok, they have a much cheaper gauge that works with them. Not as accurate as CiES, but surely better than the needles. Quote
RobertGary1 Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 Why not just send the existing ones out for overhaul? It’s inexpensive and they last for decades. Don’t see why you’d want to get fancy. 1 Quote
0TreeLemur Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 12 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: Why not just send the existing ones out for overhaul? It’s inexpensive and they last for decades. Don’t see why you’d want to get fancy. Agree. Apply the cost of new senders to buying an engine monitor with a ff meter. The utility of fuel senders pales in comparison to a fuel totalizer. An engine monitor is the best investment you can make to help you properly operate your engine and manage your fuel. PP only. 2 Quote
steingar Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) I'm told Air Parts of Lockhaven Pennsylvania can clean off the senders for not a lot of money. My gauges are for entertainment purposes only right now. I never had much use for fuel gauges, but I suppose I ought to try, so I'll probably make the trip out there some time soon. The alternative sounds like about 10 AMUs worth of boxes and installation. Edited June 23, 2021 by steingar Quote
Marauder Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 13 hours ago, Pilot boy said: So my 64 M20E is having fuel gauge issues and I’m thinking of going digital. What’s a good option for fuel gauges and digital sending units? I want to do it as cheap as possible (lol I know, I know). I have a JPI 700 w fuel flow but not a lot of panel space. Don’t really care to do the JPI 900 as it’d be about $9k installed they’re telling me. Suggestions for a good little gauge I can put in like the Hobbs meter slot? i have O & N fuel bladders also so I’m not sure if the STC Sa2350SE gives any exemptions for some inaccuracy with the fuel gauges? If anyone can shed light in that would appreciate it. I will probably call the STC holder tomorrow. The cheapest way is to fix what you have. Would I? Nah. I gave up fixing old stuff. For me it seemed like my old stuff conspires to keep me fixing old stuff. If your resistive senders are good, you could install an EI fuel gauge. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ei-digitalgraphic5d.php?clickkey=4989297 If you want to go digital, I think your E's bladder system has only 2 senders per side. So, you are looking at $885 for the senders and the cost of some sort of gauge system to support the digital senders. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ciesfuellevelsender.php?clickkey=3009464 I opted for the CiES in frequency mode with my JPI 900. In the 30 years of owning my plane, this is the first time I can actually trust my gauges. 1 Quote
0TreeLemur Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, steingar said: I'm told Air Parts of Lockhaven Pennsylvania can clean off the senders for not a lot of money. My gauges are for entertainment purposes only right now. I never had much use for fuel gauges, but I suppose I ought to try, so I'll probably make the trip out there some time soon. The alternative sounds like about 10 AMUs worth of boxes and installation. Our M20C has installed wing mounted sight gauges, resistive senders and a fuel flow meter on the JPI 900. This gives us 3 ways to estimate fuel quantity. The wing mounted sight gauges are AWESOME, but they stop indicating below about four gallons remaining. My co-pilot and I continue to be struck by how all three measurements agree. I had one of the fuel senders overhauled by Air Parts of Lockhaven. The sight gauges, resistance senders, and totalizer all agree within 1 gallon 90% of the time. The engine monitor with ff sensor is fantastic. 1 Quote
cliffy Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 I'll bet there aren't many on this board who have flown a Mooney with brand new "factory original" fuel gages! Why wouldn't GOOD original gages be as good to use? They are required to be accurate especially when near empty (IIRC within 1 gallon) I venture to guess most would be very happy with the "factory" accuracy IF both the sensors and gages were overhauled properly They worked for many years but NOTHING in the airplane gets less attention than fuel gages over the years, They are tiny electrical meters that after decades of service, sitting in the hot sun baking away mostly dry up their grease on their axles and can't accurately move to where the weak current flowing in from the floats in tanks says for them to be. They are dried out and sticky. Similarly, the level floats in the tanks after years of wiping back and forth on a resistive winding they get just plain worn out and don't control the electricity as they should. All most here have ever seen is old dried out gages after 40 or 50 years of hard use. They can be overhauled and set up with the trim screw to be very accurate at near empty AND at each 1/4 tank. If one had GOOD factory gages AND maybe a FF totalizer one could accurately gage how much fuel was left and cross check both systems at fill up. We used factory level gages for many decades before we ever got totalizers and electronic do dads. There is also the dip stick method of determining fuel on board at each stop and do it very accurately. There a two shops in Penn that specialize in factory gages. Either one is a good bet to use. Quote
carusoam Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 Cliffy, I think the world is moving towards knowing how many gallons are in the tank right now… With Ceis and a FF/totalizer…. A couple Gallon accuracy is pretty good… throughout even odd shaped tanks, top to bottom… (depending on calibration effort) My ‘94 ship’s analog gauges are incredibly accurate… but lack the precision…. Or maybe it is there, and I forgot how they work? There was a time when the needle width actually meant something… and a half needle’s width could be used to understand what the gauge was saying with more precision…. Car speedometers also took this approach… My wing fuel gauges have lines for every 5 gallons… snapped the pointy end off the needle of one, one day… easy replacement… Follow-up question… do any of our gauges use needle width to fill in for the space between hash marks on the gauge? (Stuff I may have forgotten along the way) Best regards, -a- Quote
Hector Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 I'll bet there aren't many on this board who have flown a Mooney with brand new "factory original" fuel gages! Why wouldn't GOOD original gages be as good to use? They are required to be accurate especially when near empty (IIRC within 1 gallon) I venture to guess most would be very happy with the "factory" accuracy IF both the sensors and gages were overhauled properly They worked for many years but NOTHING in the airplane gets less attention than fuel gages over the years, They are tiny electrical meters that after decades of service, sitting in the hot sun baking away mostly dry up their grease on their axles and can't accurately move to where the weak current flowing in from the floats in tanks says for them to be. They are dried out and sticky. Similarly, the level floats in the tanks after years of wiping back and forth on a resistive winding they get just plain worn out and don't control the electricity as they should. All most here have ever seen is old dried out gages after 40 or 50 years of hard use. They can be overhauled and set up with the trim screw to be very accurate at near empty AND at each 1/4 tank. If one had GOOD factory gages AND maybe a FF totalizer one could accurately gage how much fuel was left and cross check both systems at fill up. We used factory level gages for many decades before we ever got totalizers and electronic do dads. There is also the dip stick method of determining fuel on board at each stop and do it very accurately. There a two shops in Penn that specialize in factory gages. Either one is a good bet to use. Agree. I had my senders overhauled by Air Parts about 5 years ago and this annual I had both fuel gauges overhauled. They are accurate and work great. I also have a JPI with fuel totalizer but I still wanted gages that work for a complete picture. The 50 year old gages can be made to work like new for a very reasonable priceSent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 Quote
cliffy Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 28 minutes ago, carusoam said: Cliffy, I think the world is moving towards knowing how many gallons are in the tank right now… With Ceis and a FF/totalizer…. A couple Gallon accuracy is pretty good… throughout even odd shaped tanks, top to bottom… (depending on calibration effort) My ‘94 ship’s analog gauges are incredibly accurate… but lack the precision…. Or maybe it is there, and I forgot how they work? There was a time when the needle width actually meant something… and a half needle’s width could be used to understand what the gauge was saying with more precision…. Car speedometers also took this approach… My wing fuel gauges have lines for every 5 gallons… snapped the pointy end off the needle of one, one day… easy replacement… Follow-up question… do any of our gauges use needle width to fill in for the space between hash marks on the gauge? (Stuff I may have forgotten along the way) Best regards, -a- I think needle width came into use in setting the EMPTY range down low "within a needle width of the empty marker" in level flight. The regulation says that the empty indication shall be accurate at the "unusable fuel level" in level flight and shall indicate what actually remains throughout the range of the gage. In our case the pounds marked on the gage If they are set up correctly the original gages can be accurate at all four cardinal markers, although mine are marked in pounds and some interpolation (slight) may be needed with extremes of temperature to volume (float position). I'm not sure how much more accurate one needs especially if one has a FF gage working at the same time. I just use my FF to check my tank levels for a gross in flight check for leaks not shown by the FF gage. If I have 1/2 tanks and I know that equates to 12 or 13 gallons (72 pounds on the gage) in the tank, what more do I need at all 4 points? Its really not a problem until below 1/4 tank and my FF is so accurate I know what I have down there and where it all ends at the bottom. I never plan a flight to VFR 30 min mins anyway. 5 or 6 gallons remaining is cutting it WAY too close for the unplanned at the end of the flight. That's 1/4 tank or less. No way in my book but then again I've been doing this too many years to take chances now 1 Quote
carusoam Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 That reminds me… 1) Two fuel level gauges… panel mounted… 2) FF/totalizer… 3) Two wing mounted FL gauges… 4) Two independent (sort of) fuel level monitoring lights… in the annunciator panel, set properly… In a decade… I only had that warning light come on once… on a 900nm flight. 5) I think I went from a healthy fear of running out of fuel… to an unhealthy fear of running out of fuel… PP thoughts only… Best regards, -a- Quote
steingar Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 I am mainly interested in getting the gauges working to not be a scofflaw. I have no use for them at all. I have a fuel stick, I know my fuel burn, I have a clock and I can do simple arithmetic. 1 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 I am mainly interested in getting the gauges working to not be a scofflaw. I have no use for them at all. I have a fuel stick, I know my fuel burn, I have a clock and I can do simple arithmetic.That’s works fine until you spring a leak in the fuel tanks. 1 Quote
Jim Peace Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 On 6/22/2021 at 7:45 PM, Pilot boy said: Don’t really care to do the JPI 900 as it’d be about $9k installed they’re telling me. WOW.....how come when I put in that I have a JPI 900....with Ceis.. It does not show much value increase.... Quote
hammdo Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 David installed Mitchell's in the plane I bought from him: We had the left sender overhauled by Air Parts.. -Don Quote
steingar Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 22 hours ago, ArtVandelay said: That’s works fine until you spring a leak in the fuel tanks. And how frequent an occurrence is that in a Mooney with fuel bladders? Quote
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