Does Anyone Land their F or J with No Flaps?

[MBDiagMan]

The title is the question?
 

I landed my C wonderfully with no flaps.  Very easy!

When I was transitioned to the F (with all J aerodynamic improvements) I was taught to land with full flaps and essentially maximum nose up trim.  I have never tried landing the F with no flaps.  I really struggle with the F and full flaps.  I haven't flown it since January while waiting for the engine overhaul.  It’s now ready to go and if I’m going to change my technique, now would be the time.

Flame suit is on and ready for responses.

[Bob - S50]

While it is possible to land with no flaps, your touchdown speed will be about 10 knots faster which will result in a significantly longer landing roll.  No problem on a 5000' runway, but it could be a huge problem on a 2500' runway.

What kind of struggles do you have with landing full flaps?

[N201MKTurbo]

I’ve done it a number of times. I didn’t find that the speeds changed that much, but it did take a much higher pitch angle to hold it off.

I was taught to land by flying 1 foot off the ground, pull the power to idle and try to keep the plane at 1 foot till it lands. If you do this in a Mooney with no flaps, the nose will be a lot higher than with flaps, but your touch down speed will be about the same. If you flare to the same angle as you do with flaps, you will touch down at a higher speed.

Edited June 10, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[MBDiagMan]

One of my problems is that my other plane is a nimble little ragwing taildragger.  I just stall it onto the ground in a three point cnfiguration rather than flying it a foot above the runway until it settles onto the runway.

[N201MKTurbo]

6 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

One of my problems is that my other plane is a nimble little ragwing taildragger.  I just stall it onto the ground in a three point cnfiguration rather than flying it a foot above the runway until it settles onto the runway.

So, how do you stall miss Piggy onto the runway without essentially doing what I said?

[M20F-1968]

You can land the F without flaps, but the the nose attitude will be higher, speed will be faster and more difficult to slow down, and you will float MUCH MORE.

There is no good reason to land without full flaps unless they are not working.

John Breda

[RobertGary1]

Maybe as an emergency practice.

[hammdo]

I flew an F here in Texas on hot days, full flaps, no issues - windy days - half or no flaps.

I flew the F in/out of Hicks Field (T67) 3700 ft runway, in the heat - she did great and I had no problems. I just needed practice with my Mooney CFII...

-Don

[luv737s]

Landing any plane with the potential for flap failure should be practiced...before it happens!  All good pilots are taught the pitch attitude and speeds of landing NO flap..did it in the 737/A10/T38 and every plane I have ever instructed in including ours.  If you don't understand why the pitch is higher, maybe a review of lift and angle of attack is not clearly understood.  Best book written and I make all my students read it is "Stick and Rudder"!!!!  Go out and practice with a CFI that knows Mooney's and you will find it is a piece of cake.  

 

Duck

[jaylw314]

Landing with no flaps is somewhat helpful for crosswinds.  It's also useful when you land on a 10,000' runway and the FBO turnoff is at the other end 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Landing with no flaps is somewhat helpful for crosswinds.  It's also useful when you land on a 10,000' runway and the FBO turnoff is at the other end 

If the FBO is at the other end, land at the other end. When you are cleared to land, you are cleared To land anywhere on the runway.

I routinely touch down at midfield when landing on 22L at the home field. It helps me out and the controllers because of the runway stagger and the taxiways.

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If the FBO is at the other end, land at the other end. When you are cleared to land, you are cleared To land anywhere on the runway.

I routinely touch down at midfield when landing on 22L at the home field. It helps me out and the controllers because of the runway stagger and the taxiways.

While that makes sense, it just goes against my grain to waste runway.  While nothing will happen 999 times out of 1,000; in my book runway behind me is wasted not only for takeoffs, but landings as well.  However, I have been guilty of intersection takeoffs on the long runway at BFI.

[carusoam]

The biggest difference for me... flaps/no flaps...

Stall speeds around the traffic pattern get adjusted...

Tighter attention to bank angle... and un weighting the wings....

I tend to use flaps specifically to avoid stalling the plane.

 

I also fly out of a medium sized uncontrolled field...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[McMooney]

In my E, except for the nose high attitude, it really doesn't make much difference.  poh says @approx 80 i'm still in a good place for landing, plane stays a bit more planted.  still can stop in under 1500ft.   

The last two years, i've tended to land with only take off flaps.  easy to get a squeaker and brakes are barely used turning off the runway in about 2500 ft.

[jaylw314]

7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If the FBO is at the other end, land at the other end. When you are cleared to land, you are cleared To land anywhere on the runway.

I routinely touch down at midfield when landing on 22L at the home field. It helps me out and the controllers because of the runway stagger and the taxiways.

The  was indicative of speaking in jest

[JimB]

17 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

When I was transitioned to the F (with all J aerodynamic improvements) I was taught to land with full flaps and essentially maximum nose up trim.  I have never tried landing the F with no flaps.  I really struggle with the F and full flaps.  I haven't flown it since January while waiting for the engine overhaul.  It’s now ready to go and if I’m going to change my technique, now would be the time.

I was taught full flaps as well and while doing instrument training started using takeoff flaps for landing and really like it. Doesn't increase landing speed that much at all and I like the pitch attitude better. Maybe try that if your going to change your landing technique. 

[Shiny moose]

18 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

The title is the question?
 

I landed my C wonderfully with no flaps.  Very easy!

When I was transitioned to the F (with all J aerodynamic improvements) I was taught to land with full flaps and essentially maximum nose up trim.  I have never tried landing the F with no flaps.  I really struggle with the F and full flaps.  I haven't flown it since January while waiting for the engine overhaul.  It’s now ready to go and if I’m going to change my technique, now would be the time.

Flame suit is on and ready for responses.

10 inches matters! Just ask. 

Whats your TO speed? Whats your landing speed? Have you practiced a full nose up trim go around( runaway trim if electric) If not try it at altitude.

if your using flaps for take off where is your trim? Its going to be close to the same location for landing with to flaps.

How is your rigging?

 I would suggest slow flight with any flap positiion you want. Power off Stall pratice with all flap settings ( check trim location during slow flight) if you dont have trim available for slow flight then check your rigging

idle power desent 10 MPH above stall speed check trim, do you run out of trim?  wait till engine break in time is over for this 

[Marauder]

The title is the question?
 
I landed my C wonderfully with no flaps.  Very easy!
When I was transitioned to the F (with all J aerodynamic improvements) I was taught to land with full flaps and essentially maximum nose up trim.  I have never tried landing the F with no flaps.  I really struggle with the F and full flaps.  I haven't flown it since January while waiting for the engine overhaul.  It’s now ready to go and if I’m going to change my technique, now would be the time.
Flame suit is on and ready for responses.

As John Breda mentioned, what you will experience in an F is a much higher nose attitude.

Just to take some of the flame off of your suit, I never practiced them either until I did a flight review with a CFI a few years ago. He really showed me things that I didn’t know or see because I never pushed my knowledge — like the Aspen AI has a nice set of chevrons when you need to push the nose down or pull it up.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Gary0747]

I can handle stronger cross wind with no flaps or half flaps depending on the situation. The higher stall speed gives more rudder authority.   Learn it and keep it as tool for those situations. 

[carusoam]

Mooney Formation landings are often no flap...

I have seen many Mooneys landing in formation... sharing the same runway, or side by side using the adjacent taxi-way...

PP thoughts only, see if any of the Caravaners can confirm this...

Best regards,

-a-

[DCarlton]

I haven't tried it lately but I'd say it's easier to land without flaps.  Pull back the power, it sticks and you're done.  With that said, I usually just use takeoff flaps for everything.  Two pumps.  Sometimes I'll pump one more time if it's calm.  Rarely four times.  

Agree with the post above.  I primarily use flaps to lower stall speed in the pattern particularly when turning base to final.  I've assumed the take off setting is best for this. 

Personal thoughts only; I'm not a CFI; I'm not a mechanic.  I'm just a guy that flys a Mooney some days better than others. 

Edited June 12, 2021 by DCarlton

[Boilermonkey]

I prefer to land the M20M with half flaps to make the go-around a bit safer and simpler.  I find that the M20M pitch up is pretty aggressive in the go around compared to the M20C, 182, 172, and other aircraft I’ve flown.    I only use full flaps on final with speed brakes to get my speed down for short field.

[kpaul]

I have landed every airplane I have ever flown in every flap setting available.  You wouldn't want your first time landing 0 flap be during a flap malfunction.  The M20F is pretty docile to land in any flap position if you are on speed.  You may touch down faster but there is no reason to touch down farther down the runway then usual.  You just have to adjust your aim point to account for the additional speed and distance traveled during the round out and flare.

[Browncbr1]

My tires and brakes last longer when doing full flap landings as standard procedure. If all you do is TO flap landings, going to full flap is challenging..   if you always do full flap, then go to a TO flap landing heavy, you might unexpectedly realize you’re flying too slow.    Weight makes a big difference.

[MBDiagMan]

On 6/10/2021 at 2:11 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

So, how do you stall miss Piggy onto the runway without essentially doing what I said?

I don’t fly over the runway a foot above waiting for it to settle.  That’s what I TRY to do in the Mooney.  I have a couple of thousand landings in the 140.  I just drop it down and pull back when it feels right and it stalls onto the runway.  That is much of my problem landing the Mooney.  You can’t land a Mooney like that and old habits die hard.