Botched Crosswind Landing

[201er]

During a recent unexpectadly crosswind landing I encountered a situation upon landing that I did not like. I was high and fast most of the way in and employed a slip to get down. Touchdown was on the fast end and not the way I'd normally land. This is when the trouble started. During the initial roll, the airplane seemed to be skidding a bit sideways. What it appeared like was that the airplane was drifting sideways across the runway and rudder inputs that I would make would make it skid relative to going straight ahead on the runway. In other words, it seems to me that ground effect was still keeping the majority of the weight off the wheels and the wind was drifting the plane sideways. This sidways drift caused me to correct by tuning the nose with the rudder putting me into a crab while on the ground and causing wheels to skid. So it seems like the only two options were to point straight and be pushed sideways on the runway by the wind or to steer into the wind and then have the wheels not be aligned with the direction of motion. Anyway, this was a total mess and I was terrified that the gear was going to collapse. The moment I shut down I got out and checked the wheels. Surprisingly there wasn't any noticeable wear on the tires or anything bent.

Besides better speed management, what advice do you have for controlling the airplane on the ground right after a crosswind landing when the wind is trying to blow the plane one way and the wheels are telling it to go another? I think I did use aileron into the wind as well but with both wheels on the ground it doesn't do much.

[Cruiser]

Speed control, speed control, speed control.

Did you have all the power off at touch down? Carrying even a little bit will extend the time it takes for the airplane to stop flying and remain firmly on the ground.

[PTK]

I would have aborted the landing gone around and come back in on proper speed. Especially when you knew you were fast. Your lack of speed control is what started the domino effect. Aileron into the wind and directional control with rudder all the way throught the flare and roll out. Don't stop flying the airplane just because the wheels touched down. You are very fortunate to be ok and the airplane not damaged!

[jetdriven]

disrgd

[201er]

Ok, but even if my speed was dead on, I feel like there still would be some span of time when you face the choice of drifting across the runway or crabbing into the wind WHILE THREE TIRES ARE ON THE GROUND! And there's little weight on them. Of course I retracted flaps the moment I was down but it took a long time to regain control. I didn't expect this to happen or I would have went around. By the time I realized I should have went around there wasn't enough runway left to go around.

[jetdriven]

Set up for a touchdown on speed in the touchdown zone.  Go full aileron into the wind (after touchdown) to put pressure on the upwind tire to dump lift, and opposite rudder to counteract weathervaning, and to align the plane with the centerline.

[alex]

Full flaps?

[Piloto]

Mike, what you describe is not uncomon for Mooneys in high crosswind conditions particularly on icy runways. I had almost hit the grass or snow banks on the side of the runway four times. What happens is the plane does not settle on the ground below stall speed due to an air cushion build up between the wing and the ground. This is what causes the plane to float during flare. During this condtion the airspeed is low for rudder effectivenes and the tire friction is poor due to the remaining lift. To eliminate the air cushion effect the touchdown needs to be done with no flaps. Like many Mooney pilots under suspected crosswind conditions I approach the runway with full flaps at 70kts and raise them when at about 5ft from touchdown on the flare. This will cause the plane to slightly pitch up and settle gently on the ground. Since using this procedure never had the slightest tendency to weathervane into the wing. You can also do the above with no flaps on the approach but I found that visibility over the nose is much better with full flaps. It is a safe procedure that can be practiced at any time.

 

José

[PTK]

If you find your three wheels are on the ground and you are drifting sideways two things are happening. First and foremost you did not have full aileron into the wind and second, you touched down too fast. Aileron must be into the wind throughout and rudder keeps the fuselage going straight down the runway. If it's windy consider not using full flaps. Maybe no flaps or just takeoff flaps at the most. In any case decide what flaps you want to use and leave them in. No need to retract flaps right after touchdown. Leave them alone and concentrate on speed, aileron, rudder and yoke. Plenty of time to retract flaps after you clear the runway.

[201er]

Quote: Piloto

Mike, what you describe is not uncomon for Mooneys in high crosswind conditions particularly on icy runways. I had almost hit the grass or snow banks on the side of the runway four times. What happens is the plane does not settle on the ground below stall speed due to an air cushion build up between the wing and the ground. This is what causes the plane to float during flare. During this condtion the airspeed is low for rudder effectivenes and the tire friction is poor due to the remaining lift. To eliminate the air cushion effect the touchdown needs to be done with no flaps. Like many Mooney pilots under suspected crosswind conditions I approach the runway with full flaps at 70kts and raise them when at about 5ft from touchdown on the flare. This will cause the plane to slightly pitch up and settle gently on the ground. Since using this procedure never had the slightest tendency to weathervane into the wing. You can also do the above with no flaps on the approach but I found that visibility over the nose is much better with full flaps. It is a safe procedure that can be practiced at any time.

 

José

[bnicolette]

Hey Mike,

I certainly understand what you just went through.  The wind must have really been blowing pretty good.  Way to stick with it!!!

My .02

It is natural to want to fly faster when it is windy but really try to hold whatever gust factor you have added for the conditions.  Keep a close eye on speed fluctuations and if that factor needs adjusted, bump it up a bit.  I also would not recommend raising the flaps while you are airborne.  I don't think your hands should be anywhere but on the yoke and the power ready to get of of dodge if you have to.  Fly that sucker all the way down to the ground.  I believe in a stable approach and don't change configuration until on the ground.  However, it would certainly help weight on wheels if you raise them after you are down.  Also, in a heavy crosswind half flaps will definitely help directional control.

 

[Piloto]

Quote: 201er

[Piloto]

Quote: 201er

Jose, you have a perfect grasp of the scenario I'm talking about. I didn't realize it was necessary to land sans flaps. I thought getting rid of them once on the ground would have a similar effect of transfering weight to the wheels. However, I've always been taught that dumping flaps unless high or on the ground is a big no-no (that it would result in a loss of lift, stall, drop in).

How does no flaps help the crosswind landing and how is it safe to dump them still in ground effect without dropping like a rock?

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

just know that when you use full flaps in a high wind situation your losing some of your rudder authority/effectiveness which in a Mooney is all that great to begin with IMHO.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: 201er

Jose, you have a perfect grasp of the scenario I'm talking about. I didn't realize it was necessary to land sans flaps. I thought getting rid of them once on the ground would have a similar effect of transfering weight to the wheels. However, I've always been taught that dumping flaps unless high or on the ground is a big no-no (that it would result in a loss of lift, stall, drop in).

How does no flaps help the crosswind landing and how is it safe to dump them still in ground effect without dropping like a rock?

[Cris]

The only crosswind tecnique I use & teach for a Mooney is airspeed control and a crab until just before touchdown with a rudder kick & full aileron into the wind. I also use full flaps most of the time. I like Jose's points about flaps but frankly have not used that as I really try to keep my hands off of anything except the controls & power. However I must admit I am not as happy with my own landings in my eagle as I have been in the other models.  I am going to try both Jose's & Georges suggestions to see if that improves my own landings.  

[gregwatts]

I think that once you set your landing configuration, you should not change it until you clear the runway. Once you are over the fence, its one hand on the yoke and one hand on the throttle! This thing of raising flaps in the flair or on roll out......you are asking for an accident. There have been several "inadvertant gear retraction" events from pilots trying to multitask when they need to be focused. If the landing is that challenging, you should not be dividing your attention. My opinion only!

[201er]

Well I'm always retracting flaps shortly after touchdown anyway. Once the wheels are on the ground, it's virtually impossible I'll be going around. So taking my hand off the throttle isn't that big of a deal. There's no way I'll inadvertantly retract the gear (at least not on a Mooney) cause I'm reaching down and right to flick the little switch up. This does expedite tire and braking control. My new rule is not to even touch the brakes until the flaps are fully retracted.

And remember, this topic is about directional control on the ground once a crosswind landing has been made rather than how to land in a crosswind. What about elevator? Is it better to hold back to put more pressure on the mains or push forward to put more on the nosewheel for steering control?

I understand why retracting flaps on the ground is helpful in any landing. But can you explain to me why using takeoff or no flaps in a cross wind landing at all is being suggested? I would think not having the flaps down would make you land faster and be stuck in the transition stage between flight and ground roll skidding around for longer?

[gregwatts]

The flaps are creating the additional lift.......as well as affecting your directional control. I personally only use take off flaps in windy conditions...and sometimes even less flaps if winds are over 20kts.

[PapaPapa]

i agree with both replies from greg :-)

[rainman]

Mike, I am relatively new to Mooneys but was taught to use take-off or no flaps in strong crosswind approaches by my transition instructor.  After reading Piloto and Greg's responses, I'll only add that as a fairly new pilot fighting some strong wind in Texas, the little-to-no flap approach in strong crosswinds has worked very well.

Ray

[Mooneymite]

Mike, you might take a lesson from tailwheel pilots....you fly the airplane until it's tied down!

Just because the wheels are on the ground doesn't mean the flying surfaces have stopped working....keep flying the airplane during the rollout.

Because of my training in other airplanes, I'm loathe to move the flaps just before, during, or after landing.  For me, that's something to be done when there's less going on.  However, I seem to be in the minority.  A lot of Mooney pilots swear by this technique.  In strong crosswinds, I use considerably less than full flaps....this works just fine for me instead of moving them in the flare.

Mike, do you have a tail wheel endorsement?  If not, it might be good training to add to your logbook.

[Piloto]

Quote: Cris

The only crosswind tecnique I use & teach

[Piloto]

Quote: Cris

The only crosswind tecnique I use & teach for a Mooney is airspeed control and a crab until just before touchdown with a rudder kick & full aileron into the wind. I also use full flaps most of the time. I like Jose's points about flaps but frankly have not used that as I really try to keep my hands off of anything except the controls & power. However I must admit I am not as happy with my own landings in my eagle as I have been in the other models. I am going to try both Jose's & Georges suggestions to see if that improves my own landings.

[Awful_Charlie]

Quote: 201er

 But can you explain to me why using takeoff or no flaps in a cross wind landing at all is being suggested? I would think not having the flaps down would make you land faster and be stuck in the transition stage between flight and ground roll skidding around for longer?