Prospective Mooney buyer in need of advice

[Parker_Woodruff]

The reasons for SBs are very different between each one.  If your Mooney mechanic has been doing a good job, the SB may already be taken care of without officially referring to "complied with SB- _____".

[N601RX]

Quote: Gunderbear

I agree with the Idiot, get everything that you want fixed. Its your money and the Mooney will take every bit of your Money if you are not careful.  I purchased one in August this year with only 750 hours SMOH.  Thinking I would get at least 1000 hours before any major expenses.  Turns out that the seller hid a prop strike and all the avionics were taped together under the dash.  Now 4 months later and another 30K gone, I got to fly the plane for the first time yesterday.  While in Flight, the voltage regulator died and drained the battery, then I lost all avionics.  Why am I spending so much money?  Because I didn't verify everything and I was eager to purchase the plane.  I am now an educated Idiot.  Take your time and get all you want fixed before you take possession.  Its your money.

 

[bnicolette]

That is a REAL shame!!  I don't understand how people can be so deceptive especailly when we all pretty much buy about as much airplane as we think we can afford, then some seller hands you over the keys to a faulty machine that you immediately have to spill even more money into.  That person is the scum of the earth!!  The sorry story is there is probably a lot of people just like them out there.  One thing is for certain............We reap what we sow!

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

The reasons for SBs are very different between each one.  If your Mooney mechanic has been doing a good job, the SB may already be taken care of without officially referring to "complied with SB- _____".

[AndyFromCB]

Quote: NotarPilot

Thank you all.  This is good advice.  I expect to find corrosion on a 34 year old airplane.  My worry is I don't want to get into something that's over my head that ends up as a money pit.  I don't want the day I sell the airplane to be the happier day than when I buy it.  

[AndyFromCB]

Quote: NotarPilot

Thank you all.  This is good advice.  I expect to find corrosion on a 34 year old airplane.  My worry is I don't want to get into something that's over my head that ends up as a money pit.  I don't want the day I sell the airplane to be the happier day than when I buy it.  

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

If your Mooney mechanic has been doing a good job and the SB has been taken care of, it stands to reason, being a good mechanic, he'd put it in the logs! If it's not documented it's not done!

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

If your Mooney mechanic has been doing a good job and the SB has been taken care of, it stands to reason, being a good mechanic, he'd put it in the logs! If it's not documented it's not done!

[jetdriven]

You can see how well that attitude works. 

fromhttp://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=3026

 

allsmiles vs. All American (html corrected)
Posted Jul 14, 2011 9:20 PM

For several years now, Peter Kousoulis, AKA ‘allsmiles’, has been advising anyone who will listen to avoid doing business with our company, All American Aircraft.  I have generally ignored him.  However, I cannot continue to ignore.  The comments made by Kousoulis are defamatory and not based on fact.

First, let me say thank you to all of you who have supported David and me with your comments.  Some of you have purchased a Mooney from us.  Some have supported us even though you haven’t had a direct purchase experience with us.  Your willingness to say a kind word does not go unnoticed.  A very gracious THANK YOU TO YOU!  I have been a lurker, not a contributor to this forum for quite some time and to a lesser extent I have only watched the other major Mooney forum, not posted.  I don’t contribute for a very good reason.  I make part of my living in aircraft, Mooney aircraft to be specific.  I feel that it is inappropriate for me, as an aviation professional, to use such a venue, whether I am actually promoting my business or not.  That is my decision.

Second, let me say that the inter-web is a tremendous tool, both for business and for personal use.  We can do things through the net that were unthinkable in the past.  When I started at AAA back in ’95, we had to submit our three or four line ads to trade-a-plane, wait a week to ten days for publication, wait two more weeks for the phone to ring, then start faxing and mailing (USPO) photos to prospects and hope to get a decent customer on the plane by the sixth week.  Now, we get planes in the advertising cycle with complete specs and photos the same day the plane arrives and often get calls by the second day.

However, the net has a dark side also.  It provides anonymity to some who want to hide behind it and use it to damage others.  I am sure Dr. Kousoulis will attest to that.  Doctors and dentists are probably as easy a target as there is for malicious attacks.  When you can Google a name and instantly see a negative recommendation or a trashing without having the complete story, you have to wonder if the web is a net positive or net negative for a business who deals with end users.  I have 100% confidence that the actual ratio of negative to positive experiences with patients to Dr. Kousoulis’ office is in no way represented by the ratio of postings on the internet.  Unfortunately, I am not sure how he or any other person in his field or a similar field can combat the negative, other than to encourage happy clients to do their own postings to balance the negative.  Fortunately for AAA, we have some defenders that do it for us.  And in this case I also have the ability to respond on this list.  To date, I have not taken such a position of response.  Today, I will.

Dr. Peter Kousoulis was provided with a detailed recap of the entire transaction along with the return of the deposit that was left over after the expenses that he specifically requested were deducted, namely, the moving of the aircraft at his request from San Antonio to Don Maxwell Aviation and the cost of the pre-sale inspection by Don Maxwell that he requested.  No additional funds were kept despite a very good case for keeping the whole deposit.  Dr. Kousoulis made several decisions and non-decisions over a very long period of time, three days short of four months, to be exact (start date, 3/31/05, end date 7/28/05).  Whether he made wise decisions or not is immaterial.  What is accurate is that we did accommodate him by taking the plane to his choice of mechanic and we did pay to have the squawks repaired that were required for airworthiness to have Maxwell return the aircraft to service with a complete annual inspection.  And we did inform him that the plane was ready for him.  And in the end, after four months of non-closure on the aircraft (nearly two months after the annual was completed) we made the decision to move on.  We took one of two backup offers that we had on the plane (one that was unacceptable, one that came in at the last minute).  We fulfilled our obligations.  As far as escrow goes, had the money been put into escrow, the outcome would have been the same because the escrow company is under the instructions of the parties and their agreement (in this case, including the part where it says that if the purchaser has not accepted delivery within ten days… Seller shall have the right to sell such aircraft… and Seller may retain ALL deposits).  The escrow company is required to abide by the terms of the agreement.  Escrow is there to keep bad guys from taking your money.  It is not there to allow either party to walk away with something they are not entitled to.  We were entitled to compensation for the expenses we took out of our pocket at the request of the buyer and we were entitled by the letter of the agreement to keep the balance of the deposit also.  We chose only to keep the out of pocket expenses.

I would hope for a measured response from ‘allsmiles’, but my guess is that is not to be forthcoming.  He says he has ‘forgiven’ us.  But, he continues to tell people not to use us or trust us.  He says it is water under the bridge.  But he says he was not respected by the “PIA, cheapskate, know nothing, blowhard, time wasting…”  BROKER.  The mis-information that he has provided thus far is laughable.  My guess is that this is also going to bring out several others who are going to have something to contribute to the negative aspect of dealers/brokers in general and AAA in specific.  I know who some of them are, others not so much.  Some I have a response for, as I know who they are and what the issue is.  In response to one, I will go ahead and just state that I will not negotiate offers that are wholesale or below, even if you are just using it as your starting point – if you get your feelings hurt because of that, then I am sorry.  Others hide behind the net and I don’t know who they are so I can’t respond because I don’t have a clue what their beef is.  Some I may not have an answer to.  I am just as apt to make a mistake as anyone and it could have been as simple as that.  I will be the first to tell you that no matter how hard we try, we are not going to satisfy everyone.  But on the other hand, there are those that cannot be satisfied – ‘forgiven’, ‘water under the bridge’, ‘stay away’, ‘cheapskate’, ‘blowhard’...  I guess you pick your battles but in this case I am defending our position.

If the mods here on MooneySpace want to designate an intermediary to review the facts, please let me know and I will provide them.  But as of this time, the forum is providing one party a place to post non-factual information while encouraging its patrons to avoid business with us.  I expect that a factual response will not be censored.

Sincerely, Jimmy Garrison

« Last edit: Jul 14, 2011 9:56 PM by jgarrison»

[Parker_Woodruff]

Would you replace a perfectly functioning alternator with 600 TTSN in 2002 because an SB said so?  For a product you don't know?

[PTK]

Byron, what does your post have to do with the present discussion?

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Would you replace a perfectly functioning alternator with 600 TTSN in 2002 because an SB said so?  For a product you don't know?

[RJBrown]

Not all purchases are horror stories.

I bought N1079V 2 1/2 years ago. It was a 1680 TT all original and appeared to be well taken care of. We agreed to take it to Arapahoe Aero, the local MSC for an annual. He paid for everything I knew to ask for.  Since I have owned it the only unscheduled replacements were a battery and a vacuum pump. People relate worst case horror stories but in 2 plane purchases I have had no real surprises.

 I used this form: http://www.1st-of-pryor.com/aircraft_purchase.htm and it saved me. Before buying the MSE I had a TLS under contract, we used this form, took it to the MSC in Denton TX. The plane was not airworthy and the seller refusted to make it meet the terms on the contract. Because I was protected by a solid agreement the SELLER had to cover the cost of the pre buy.

I wish the seller had gone ahead and fixed it for me but he needed to "learn" more about today's market. After it was fixed another guy on this board bought it and loves it last I heard. If you know the condition of the plane the rest is just figuring out what it is worth. Most important element is determining the condition.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

I can't decide that. This would be a question for the folks who made the decision to issue the SB.

[jetdriven]

depends if the SB was written by an engineer, a pilot, or a lawyer.

[PTK]

Yes, and as the buyer you'd have to make the decision whether to demand compliance from seller.

Look the overwhelming majority of sellers are good honest people. Occasionally some unsuspecting buyer runs into a bad situation that may have been prevented had they been more methodical and demanding and frankly less trusting.  It does sound silly to nitpick every little detail SB, AD or whatever. But as silly as it sounds I'm afraid it's necessary. It is through such deliberate nitpicking that things can get uncovered. Things need to be uncovered before the sale. After it's too late! That's all I'm saying.

[jetdriven]

ike buyers demanding a prop be replaced becauase of a dressed-out nick in the blade. 

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

ike buyers demanding a prop be replaced becauase of a dressed-out nick in the blade. 

[cb310]

Obviously, there are some very strong feelings and lots of interest in this post.  With my father, we bought a 78 J in July of this year.  The airplane was in the LA area and had been posted as for sale here on MooneySpace.  It looked and looks very nice.  It is original 1978 paint.  The engine was 160 SMOH and the airplane had 1820 TT.  We had what we thought was a thorough pre-buy inspection done by a MSC in the LA area.  After $5000 in repairs at the MSC, we had the airplane flown to another place in the LA area for a complete tank re-seal. 

One month into ownership, we were ready to fly our baby home to Ohio.  We made it as far as Gila Bend, AZ before the oil temperature red-lined.  After a quick landing in Gila Bend, we found that in 1.75 hours, 3 quarts of oil had departed the airplane.  We consulted the MSC in Chandler, AZ and flew it to Chandler.  In Chandler, we found that the throttle cable was improperly installed and close to failing, the fuel injectors were a mess and past scheduled service, and on and on it went.  Keep in mind that this was AFTER the pre-buy at the MSC in LA.  We left our plane in Chandler and flew home.

Our next attempt at reaching Ohio resulted in the airplane still losing oil and a night in a Motel 6 in Pecos, TX before flying it to Don Maxwell in Longview.  Don had his own take on our issues and found additional issues with the airplane like a vacuum pump way over time limit and a fuel line running very close to the exhaust.  A few more thousands were spent with Don and off we went again.  But, the plane was not fixed.  Still losing oil, we made it to Ohio and our home mechanic.

As I write this, four months after buying the plane, it is sitting in parts with the mechanic in Ohio who is going to rebuild the breather system and replace multiple seals that seem to be leaking, but were not squawked by the MSC in Chandler or the very good folks at Don Maxwell. 

My point on all this is that almost no airplane for sale will be in the shape you want it to be.  You may find a great airplane from an upgrading owner, but most are sold because the owner isn't flying enough or can't afford to do so anymore.  Our pre-buy in LA at a MSC no less was useless.  There is so much more that goes into analyzing an airplane.  How much time is on the magneto?  The vacuum pump?  How old are the flight instruments?  Hours on the engine are great, but how much calender time since overhaul?  What about the tires?  Are all the 8130's present?

PM me if you want more.  I'm sure all on this board will agree that no matter what, airplane ownership is one exciting, sometimes difficult, sometimes excruciating ride!

Chris Bradshaw

1978 M20 J

 

[bnicolette]

Quote: RJBrown

Not all purchases are horror stories.

[jetmech1972]

Just curious, why would the mechanics be looking into other systems if the original squawk was the oil system?

[cb310]

It's all related.  The high oil temperature can be from many causes.  In our case, it was from multiple things.  We ended up with the vermatherm being re-seated and the service of the injectors because the plugged injectors can make the engine run hotter.  As for things like the throttle cable and fuel line near the exhaust, they were easy to see to a trained eye once the cowl is removed.

[bgpilot1]

Use the AOPA valuation tool and check with Falcon Insurance for requirements and rates.  

Check the fuel tanks for leaks.

Is the Garmin a 430 or 430W and do you care?

Consider an M20F as an option if looking at pre 1978 J Models.  

The M20J in CA listed for 64,900 on Controller looks pretty nice.  400 hours until TBO which is recommended.  It could take you 6 years to accumulate 400 hours, at 2000 you could still have a fine running engine.  Overhaul is approx 20k.  

Write a list of what you value most in an airplane.  Paint can be done for 10k.  Interior for 6k.  Avionics, well, whatever you want to spend and you don't get the value back if selling within 5 years.  

Put 10% of the purchase price aside for unexpected things you will need or want to fix.  

You can check out my photos for before and after and I'm happy to share my experiences with you.  Just as all us airplane owners, we have an opinion based on our own experiences!  

Good luck.  Barry

[231Pilot]

So far I have purchased three Mooneys: a 1967 M20C, a 1982 M20J, and a 1985 M20K, none has been without it's maintenence costs, none has been a nightmare, all have been a joy to fly.  On the first two, there were never any major maintenence issues, but I did spend money on avionics upgrades that were not cheap. Tthe third I have owned a little over a week, and incurred a few costs when I had some extra work done at pre-buy.

I did buy through a dealer...all three times and I was treated fairly.  Yes they are in business to make a profit, just like the rest of us, and these guys have made their living on repeat customers like me because they have never misrepresented anything (to me) and they have stood behind the aircraft (replaced or repaired equipment shortly after purchase...paid for repair of transponders on the 67 and the 82, and repaired autopilot on the 82).

Allsmiles, I know you and Greg Watts don't like them, but Jimmy  and David at All American have treated me well over the last eleven years and I would recommend them to anyone who is looking for a Mooney.  I like them as dealers, I like them as people, and I consider them to be friends. The planes (even when they were new) won't be perfict, but they won't be misrepresented either.

 

[jetdriven]

Chris:

Not to be condescending, but from the sound of your post, it sounds like you are rather inexperienced in aircraft ownership, you bought a plane that needed work and have been taken for a ride.  Your original problems continue on. Hopefully you can sort them out before spending much more.

Many buyers overlook the geared up 8 years ago, mid time airframes and go right to the low hours creampuff hangar queens. Then they post about having to replace engines, accessories, and thousands of dollars in work.  After a MSC annual or prebuy, no less.  We got ripped off for about 1500$ on our prebuy and repairs.  Since buying a year ago we have replaced and repaired many items.  I knew about most of these at purchase, but we got it priced right.

There is no scheduled service for fuel injectors. They should be cleaned when they demonstrate signs of needing cleaned, such as a widening GAMI spread.  The cylinders "runnning hotter" indicates you are leaning to ROP and the clogged injector cylinders are at peak. This will cause damage. Cleaning, rearranging injectors to balance fuel flow per cylinder, eliminating induction leaks, and running LOP will prevent this. So will running at 65% power or less, at any mixture setting.

There is no "time limit" for a vacuum pump.  Magnetos on our planes had a mandatory 500 hour AD which is basically almost an overhaul. A very important factor in an aircraft is hours in the last 3 years  Look closely, you want to see 300 or more.  500 is even better.

  I am surprised Don didn't fix your oil loss problem, he is tip top. Is it burning oil or is it leaking out?  It could have serious blow-by, pressurizing the crankcase and forcing oil out. IIRC, Teledyne Continental Motors has a service prodecure where you drill an oil filler cap, tap it for a nipple, and fit an airspeed indicator to it. Anything over 90 MPH IAS indicates an over pressurized crankcase. You can do that. Search for the real data on it.

Also, 8130s are not required for many things. It is up to the installing mechanic to determine airworthiness. Unfortunately most shops operate in CYA mode rather than FYA (fix your airplane) mode, so they will only install new or 8130 recertified parts. A Stormscope recertification is a flat rate 5K.   We installed a used one from another member on this board for 200$.  Its a non-critical part, so why worry. Same with a VFR KLN-89B GPS, a DME indicator, or #2 NAV indicator.

Quote: cb310

Obviously, there are some very strong feelings and lots of interest in this post.  With my father, we bought a 78 J in July of this year.  The airplane was in the LA area and had been posted as for sale here on MooneySpace.  It looked and looks very nice.  It is original 1978 paint.  The engine was 160 SMOH and the airplane had 1820 TT.  We had what we thought was a thorough pre-buy inspection done by a MSC in the LA area.  After $5000 in repairs at the MSC, we had the airplane flown to another place in the LA area for a complete tank re-seal. 

One month into ownership, we were ready to fly our baby home to Ohio.  We made it as far as Gila Bend, AZ before the oil temperature red-lined.  After a quick landing in Gila Bend, we found that in 1.75 hours, 3 quarts of oil had departed the airplane.  We consulted the MSC in Chandler, AZ and flew it to Chandler.  In Chandler, we found that the throttle cable was improperly installed and close to failing, the fuel injectors were a mess and past scheduled service, and on and on it went.  Keep in mind that this was AFTER the pre-buy at the MSC in LA.  We left our plane in Chandler and flew home.

Our next attempt at reaching Ohio resulted in the airplane still losing oil and a night in a Motel 6 in Pecos, TX before flying it to Don Maxwell in Longview.  Don had his own take on our issues and found additional issues with the airplane like a vacuum pump way over time limit and a fuel line running very close to the exhaust.  A few more thousands were spent with Don and off we went again.  But, the plane was not fixed.  Still losing oil, we made it to Ohio and our home mechanic.

As I write this, four months after buying the plane, it is sitting in parts with the mechanic in Ohio who is going to rebuild the breather system and replace multiple seals that seem to be leaking, but were not squawked by the MSC in Chandler or the very good folks at Don Maxwell. 

My point on all this is that almost no airplane for sale will be in the shape you want it to be.  You may find a great airplane from an upgrading owner, but most are sold because the owner isn't flying enough or can't afford to do so anymore.  Our pre-buy in LA at a MSC no less was useless.  There is so much more that goes into analyzing an airplane.  How much time is on the magneto?  The vacuum pump?  How old are the flight instruments?  Hours on the engine are great, but how much calender time since overhaul?  What about the tires?  Are all the 8130's present?

PM me if you want more.  I'm sure all on this board will agree that no matter what, airplane ownership is one exciting, sometimes difficult, sometimes excruciating ride!

Chris Bradshaw

1978 M20 J