Surviving COVID

[MISSILEFLYER]

Just now, orionflt said:

It impacted mine.... of course that's because I couldn't move 10 feet with out needing a nap while I had it.

Sorry to hear that.

[Nstarbf]

I caught covid in mid January.  It was a pretty good wallop but not as bad as some and certainly not as bad as those that ended up in the hospital.  My experience was similar to Orionfit.  it was like  a 3-4 day cycle.  It would hit me hard then I would start to feel better, almost like I'd thrown it and then wham it would knock me back down.  Unfortunately soon after it past and I was back at work, I developed a DVT and then shortly after that a PE (a "quite small" PE according to the docs but still a PE).  I had my last follow up appointment yesterday and have been prescribed blood thinners for the next 8 months.  So now I guess it's time to have a talk with the FAA.   According to AOPA's medical advisory area, it looks like I might be needing to gain a special issuance medical (I have a class III).  Any one have any experience with covid related special issuances?  from what I gather you want to avoid SI's but life has thrown me another "adventure".  

Edited February 25, 2021 by Nstarbf

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

17 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

18 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

I think the reason the effective rate is so high is because it can kick our butt like this.  

I wonder... the people that are having the significant #2 vaccine reaction like this... are these the people that would have more likely died if they got the real thing?  I've read that what's killing people is often the immune system over-reacting.

I would always get my flu vaccine with the rest of my unit when I was on active duty.  The nasal vaccine, especially, would hit me quickly, usually within 3 hours.  The rest would have the same effect, but usually 10-12 hours later.

I would not read too much into these effects, since they may be an artifact from the "inert" ingredients, rather than from the "active" ones.

I asked a friend in the health care business about it, and she said,

"Nothing is different about the 2nd shot.  After the 1st your immune system is taught to recognize the Covid virus and starts to ramp up its defenses in case it sees the threat again; when you get your 2nd, your immune system is armed and ready and assaults what it thinks is the virus like it's D-Day. Of course, that response varies by the individual, with younger people (with more robust immune systems) typically having a more aggressive response.  And it doesn't really matter whether it's the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine; they're both mRNA vaccines."

So there you have it; a 19-year-old such as me will have a stronger reaction.

[Marauder]

38 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I asked a friend in the health care business about it, and she said,

"Nothing is different about the 2nd shot.  After the 1st your immune system is taught to recognize the Covid virus and starts to ramp up its defenses in case it sees the threat again; when you get your 2nd, your immune system is armed and ready and assaults what it thinks is the virus like it's D-Day. Of course, that response varies by the individual, with younger people (with more robust immune systems) typically having a more aggressive response.  And it doesn't really matter whether it's the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine; they're both mRNA vaccines."

So there you have it; a 19-year-old such as me will have a stronger reaction.

I would be worried if you don't have a reaction to the second injection. It means your body is working correctly.

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, Nstarbf said:

I caught covid in mid January.  It was a pretty good wallop but not as bad as some and certainly not as bad as those that ended up in the hospital.  My experience was similar to Orionfit.  it was like  a 3-4 day cycle.  It would hit me hard then I would start to feel better, almost like I'd thrown it and then wham it would knock me back down.  Unfortunately soon after it past and I was back at work, I developed a DVD and then shortly after that a PE (a "quite small" PE according to the docs but still a PE).  I had my last follow up appointment yesterday and have been prescribed blood thinners for the next 8 months.  So now I guess it's time to have a talk with the FAA.   According to AOPA's medical advisory area, it looks like I might be needing to gain a special issuance medical (I have a class III).  Any one have any experience with covid related special issuances?  from what I gather you want to avoid SI's but life has thrown me another "adventure".  

Ugh.  I have a sad feeling that the PE will make it more complicated, regardless of the cause, but that is speculation on my part (not an AME)

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

I would be worried if you don't have a reaction to the second injection. It means your body is working correctly.

From the CDC website.  Higher rates of reactions to the 2nd dose (the second to last column), but not more than 50%, so I wouldn't worry if there was no reaction.

FWIW, I did get fatigue, myalgias and chills to the 2nd injection after 24 hours, then they suddenly stopped about 24 hours later and I was fine.  Weirdly, I was aching everywhere EXCEPT the injection site.

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

I would be worried if you don't have a reaction to the second injection. It means your body is working correctly.

I thought the same, but it appears to be age related like AH1 CobraPilot said above.  My 91 yr old mother and 80 yr old father in law just had their second shots, but had almost no side affects.  A friend who is 30 (firefighter) had his and felt like hell for 24 hours.

[ilovecornfields]

8 hours ago, Nstarbf said:

I caught covid in mid January.  It was a pretty good wallop but not as bad as some and certainly not as bad as those that ended up in the hospital.  My experience was similar to Orionfit.  it was like  a 3-4 day cycle.  It would hit me hard then I would start to feel better, almost like I'd thrown it and then wham it would knock me back down.  Unfortunately soon after it past and I was back at work, I developed a DVD and then shortly after that a PE (a "quite small" PE according to the docs but still a PE).  I had my last follow up appointment yesterday and have been prescribed blood thinners for the next 8 months.  So now I guess it's time to have a talk with the FAA.   According to AOPA's medical advisory area, it looks like I might be needing to gain a special issuance medical (I have a class III).  Any one have any experience with covid related special issuances?  from what I gather you want to avoid SI's but life has thrown me another "adventure".  

Not an AME,  but I would schedule an informal discussion with one without filling out any paperwork first. If you don’t need a medical right now I would consider basicmed.

Pulmonary embolism is a very controversial subject in medicine and I fear that the FAA may not appreciate the nuances. One of the jobs of your lung capillaries is to filter out blood clots which we all get in small amounts. By not letting the clots get to the left side of your heart it prevents you from getting a stroke. This is all normal and happens on a microscopic level all the time.

Recently, with d-dimer testing and MDCT scanners, we are now able to find tiny blood clots that we probably wouldn’t have found before and likely are of no clinical significance. The problem is now that you find it, you feel compelled to treat it which involves drugs that can have some serious side effects (especially in the setting of trauma) and a serious sounding diagnosis. It’s not that PE can’t be serious as it certainly can be life threatening, but there is a wide spectrum of disease and not all cases of PE are a threat to life. 

COVID does seem to increase your risk of blood clots for some time so I’m not second guessing your providers and whether or not it was appropriate to look for and treat a PE, but I’m just trying to communicate some subtitles that may be relevant to your future flying career. 
 

If I was in your situation I would NOT start by talking to the FAA. Ground yourself and talk to an AME first. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by ilovecornfields

[Nukemzzz]

7 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Not an AME,  but I would schedule an informal discussion with one without filling out any paperwork first. If you don’t need a medical right now I would consider basicmed.

Pulmonary embolism is a very controversial subject in medicine and I fear that the FAA may not appreciate the nuances. One of the jobs of your lung capillaries is to filter out blood clots which we all get in small amounts. By not letting the clots get to the left side of your heart it prevents you from getting a stroke. This is all normal and happens on a microscopic level all the time.

Recently, with d-dimer testing and MDCT scanners, we are now able to find tiny blood clots that we probably wouldn’t have found before and likely are of no clinical significance. The problem is now that you find it, you feel compelled to treat it which involves drugs that can have some serious side effects (especially in the setting of trauma) and a serious sounding diagnosis. It’s not that PE can’t be serious as it certainly can be life threatening, but there is a wide spectrum of disease and not all cases of PE are a threat to life. 

COVID does seem to increase your risk of blood clots for some time so I’m not second guessing your providers and whether or not it was appropriate to look for and treat a PE, but I’m just trying to communicate some subtitles that may be relevant to your future flying career. 
 

If I was in your situation I would NOT start by talking to the FAA. Ground yourself and talk to an AME first. 

 

Maybe wear a disguise to see the AME?  

 

[Shadrach]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:45 AM, Nstarbf said:

I caught covid in mid January.  It was a pretty good wallop but not as bad as some and certainly not as bad as those that ended up in the hospital.  My experience was similar to Orionfit.  it was like  a 3-4 day cycle.  It would hit me hard then I would start to feel better, almost like I'd thrown it and then wham it would knock me back down.  Unfortunately soon after it past and I was back at work, I developed a DVD and then shortly after that a PE (a "quite small" PE according to the docs but still a PE).  I had my last follow up appointment yesterday and have been prescribed blood thinners for the next 8 months.  So now I guess it's time to have a talk with the FAA.   According to AOPA's medical advisory area, it looks like I might be needing to gain a special issuance medical (I have a class III).  Any one have any experience with covid related special issuances?  from what I gather you want to avoid SI's but life has thrown me another "adventure".  

I had a DVT in my left leg three years ago.  It was likely related to a past trauma (knee dislocation, fibular horn fracture, compartment syndrome and a 4 compartment fasciotomy...good times).  I was on Xerelto for 3 months. The PE obviously complicates things a bit but be glad you're here to tell the tale.  I self grounded during the Xerelto regimen and reported on my next medical. My AME said that was fine. FAA has not said a peep.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

On 2/23/2021 at 1:46 AM, kmyfm20s said:

Headache and cough for me. Then about 2 weeks of fatigue after. Total laziness with naps ever couple of hours it seemed like. I forced myself to go outside in the sun and take walks which made me fell great again. Kinda like charging a battery.  I would say it was worse than a cold but not as bad as the flew for me. I never lost taste or smell but I would get a whiff of ammonia or smoke smell occasionally. We caught it from my sons nanny. 

This was a weird side effect I forgot to mention. The smell of cigarette smoke randomly filled my nose for weeks after recovering my sense of smell.

[Immelman]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:06 PM, Shadrach said:

 Still, it seems like a waste of a scarce resource to give the vaccine to someone just 3 weeks after they easily recovered from the actual virus.

About your dad's vaccine reaction - this is 2nd hand from a buddy of mine in his late 60s/early 70s:

He volunteered to be on the astra zenica vaccine trial. He got the shots. Minimal side effects. But he suspected it was not the placebo. Later he was un-blinded, and they confirmed he was given the real vaccine..

Now for whatever reason, he decided to go get one of the other vaccines (pfizer or moderna). Shot #1: Significant reaction. In bed with fever/chills for multiple days.

It sounds to me (pilot, not doctor) like the immune system in your dad is working well, as it is in my friend.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Immelman

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, Immelman said:

About your dad's vaccine reaction - this is 2nd hand from a buddy of mine in his late 60s/early 70s:

He volunteered to be on the astra zenica vaccine trial. He got the shots. Minimal side effects. But he suspected it was not the placebo. Later he was un-blinded, and they confirmed he was given the real vaccine..

Now for whatever reason, he decided to go get one of the other vaccines (pfizer or moderna). Shot #1: Significant reaction. In bed with fever/chills for multiple days.

It sounds to me (pilot, not doctor) like the immune system in your dad is working well, as it is in my friend.

Good to know. I’ve urged my dad to report his side effect ASAP. I know that both shots made him uncomfortable because his nature is to be annoyingly stoic. He was vaccinated shorty after he recovered from the actual disease. Don’t know if that plays a roll. Seems it would have made more sense to make his dose available to someone at higher risk.

[Nstarbf]

Thanks everyone for all the information and advice.  It's been very awesome getting all the responses and is very welcomed.  

Just wanted to say that I was intending on talking to my AME first.  I guess I kind of consider them one and the same (AME vs FAA) in my head.  They (AME's) can give advice without having to report a pilot's questions to the FAA?

 

[MISSILEFLYER]

18 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Not an AME,  but I would schedule an informal discussion with one without filling out any paperwork first. If you don’t need a medical right now I would consider basicmed.

Pulmonary embolism is a very controversial subject in medicine and I fear that the FAA may not appreciate the nuances. One of the jobs of your lung capillaries is to filter out blood clots which we all get in small amounts. By not letting the clots get to the left side of your heart it prevents you from getting a stroke. This is all normal and happens on a microscopic level all the time.

Recently, with d-dimer testing and MDCT scanners, we are now able to find tiny blood clots that we probably wouldn’t have found before and likely are of no clinical significance. The problem is now that you find it, you feel compelled to treat it which involves drugs that can have some serious side effects (especially in the setting of trauma) and a serious sounding diagnosis. It’s not that PE can’t be serious as it certainly can be life threatening, but there is a wide spectrum of disease and not all cases of PE are a threat to life. 

COVID does seem to increase your risk of blood clots for some time so I’m not second guessing your providers and whether or not it was appropriate to look for and treat a PE, but I’m just trying to communicate some subtitles that may be relevant to your future flying career. 
 

If I was in your situation I would NOT start by talking to the FAA. Ground yourself and talk to an AME first. 

I like the recommendation in your post.  That is all I like.  Why?  Because of the “compelled to treat” discussion.  I as the patient am compelled to NOT accept your treatment given the side-effects from the treatment and impact to my body and lifestyle...I weigh the exposure and recommendation (drugs for something I can only recently see that likely is NOT an issue).  The “cure” in my opinion is not worth the exposure/risk.

If a borderline statin diagnosis...with weight control and hypertension control and heart scan with “minimal” plaque diagnosis do you take the statin or not?  I would choose NOT.

Still waiting for a response to the request to have a list of Covid 19 guidelines.  CDC’s leader the revered Dr. Fauci said “no big deal”....then “masks can give a false sense of security...they may stop a droplet, but I wouldn’t go around with a mask” (not a direct quote but close) Interviewer said “Hey, there are a lot of people that are listening...are you sure we don’t need to wear masks”?  “No”...

That was what it was.  In the time of need when experience, honesty, professionalism mattered...

FAIL.

Stop the spread we were told.  Just a couple of weeks...Just a couple of months...

We are now approaching a year.

I respect everyone’s personal decision on how they choose to protect themselves and their families and others.

I reject that I am considered “mean” Anthony’s words for asking questions based on the moving ball that has been the Covid 19 response.

It is shameful that this has been politicized to 11 (Spinal Tap)...

But it HAS.

We the people are “getting through this” in spite of government hi-jinx that ABSOLUTELY includes manipulation of numbers/exposure/protection.

Some respond with fear.  Some respond with anger.  I respect either response.

Just glad I didn’t live in California or New York or Michigan or Illinois during Covid 19.  The decisions by your leaders are unconscionable.  Yet there is a refusal to even allow it to be discussed here.  Why?  Because it is political...   

THAT is why THIS TOPIC SHOULD NOT BE DISCUSSED ON MOONEYSPACE...Or not selectively exclude discussion.

The best way to prevent a future accident is to get ALL the facts.  To identify what the fundamental cause was and educate and avoid a recurrence.

We won’t even discuss the mitigation errors here or anywhere...

THAT is how a train wreck keeps occurring.

THAT is how people needlessly die.  With no accountability and clearly reviewing what was done well...what was done poorly and learning from it you keep having the same things happen and you have a general public that has diminished trust in government and institutions including CDC and healthcare.

CYA...it’s the American way.

Truth matters.  

Learning from mistakes matters.

Demand better.

Edited February 25, 2021 by MISSILEFLYER

[Marauder]

17 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I had a DVT in my left leg three years ago.  It was likely related to a past trauma (knee dislocation, fibular horn fracture, compartment syndrome and a 4 compartment fasciotomy...good times).  I was on Xerelto for 3 months. The PE obviously complicates things a bit but be glad you're here to tell the tale.  I self grounded during the Xerelto regimen and reported on my next medical. My AME said that was fine. FAA has not said a peep.

I'm a 2 time survivor of DVTs. Both were attributed to being on long (and I mean long) international flights where I got dehydrated (not quite to a prune level). The first time was 12 years ago. Back then it was the heparin, Lovenox, rat poison routine. The second time was 4 years ago. Xarelto was the preferred treatment then. In fact, that treatment was a complete contrast from the first event. The first time I was hospitalized for 5 days and put through a litany of tests. The second event saw me given Xarelto in the emergency room and sent on my way with a free 30 day dose and then staying on Xarelto for 6 months. After the course of Xarelto I was switched to aspirin (325 mg) and now drink like a race horse. So... if you invite me to a fly-in, just be prepared for me to ask where the closest bathroom is right after I saw "hello" 

As for the FAA handling. When I went for the 3rd class medical after the first event, I had to provide INR results. What was noteworthy was that the AME/FAA interest in the DVT was minimal. What they were more interested in were the tests that were conducted in attempt to discover the cause of the DVT. That resulted in a biopsy of a nodule on my thyroid. 

When my sister (a physician) told me that there are concerns over DVT development with COVID, I became even more cautious. I'm not going to provide another data point for that analysis. 

[donkaye]

I had the 2nd Moderna shot on Tuesday 2/23.  No temperature; not feeling 100% yesterday 2/24.  Feeling near 100% 2/25 today.  A little soreness in the arm.  Shirley had no adverse effect at all to the 2nd shot.

In 2 weeks, after immunity builds up,  I'll be going back to flight instructing full steam ahead--at last.

[DonMuncy]

I had both Moderna shots, and both gave me a slightly sore arm and no other problems.

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

I'm a 2 time survivor of DVTs. Both were attributed to being on long (and I mean long) international flights where I got dehydrated (not quite to a prune level). The first time was 12 years ago. Back then it was the heparin, Lovenox, rat poison routine. The second time was 4 years ago. Xarelto was the preferred treatment then. In fact, that treatment was a complete contrast from the first event. The first time I was hospitalized for 5 days and put through a litany of tests. The second event saw me given Xarelto in the emergency room and sent on my way with a free 30 day dose and then staying on Xarelto for 6 months. After the course of Xarelto I was switched to aspirin (325 mg) and now drink like a race horse. So... if you invite me to a fly-in, just be prepared for me to ask where the closest bathroom is right after I saw "hello" 

As for the FAA handling. When I went for the 3rd class medical after the first event, I had to provide INR results. What was noteworthy was that the AME/FAA interest in the DVT was minimal. What they were more interested in were the tests that were conducted in attempt to discover the cause of the DVT. That resulted in a biopsy of a nodule on my thyroid. 

When my sister (a physician) told me that there are concerns over DVT development with COVID, I became even more cautious. I'm not going to provide another data point for that analysis. 

How did you discover the DVT? I was getting a cramp in my calf with even moderate activity. They did  an ultrasound to be on the safe side because of all the trauma to that leg. Trauma pre-dated the DVT diagnosis by nine years. It may have been there for a long time.

[jaylw314]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

How did you discover the DVT? I was getting a cramp in my calf with even moderate activity. They did  an ultrasound to be on the safe side because of all the trauma to that leg. Trauma pre-dated the DVT diagnosis by nine years. It may have been there for a long time.

If you're in a hospital these days, if you even MENTION you have legs, they'll come chasing you down with the venous doppler ultrasound.  20 years ago, nobody would have known about it

[Shadrach]

53 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

If you're in a hospital these days, if you even MENTION you have legs, they'll come chasing you down with the venous doppler ultrasound.  20 years ago, nobody would have known about it

Not in my case. It was very obvious. Anything more than a very slow walk and my lower leg would get very painful. I thought I could feel an unusual firmness to the area but that could’ve been my imagination. I had several ossification in the aftermath of the trama. This felt similar only worse. It was located right where I told the tech. IIRC,  the tech left it to my physician to verify it was a clot but his facial expression and mannerisms gave it away when he saw it.

[Shadrach]

On 2/24/2021 at 9:59 AM, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I asked a friend in the health care business about it, and she said,

"Nothing is different about the 2nd shot.  After the 1st your immune system is taught to recognize the Covid virus and starts to ramp up its defenses in case it sees the threat again; when you get your 2nd, your immune system is armed and ready and assaults what it thinks is the virus like it's D-Day. Of course, that response varies by the individual, with younger people (with more robust immune systems) typically having a more aggressive response.  And it doesn't really matter whether it's the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine; they're both mRNA vaccines."

So there you have it; a 19-year-old such as me will have a stronger reaction.

My 82 yr old dad would beg to differ. Both shots hit him hard and we’re far more debilitating than the actual virus. Perhaps because he had already had it just weeks before his first inoculation.

in a moment of weakness he would likely admit that his immune system is probably more akin to that of a 25-year-old.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Shadrach

[Marauder]

On 2/25/2021 at 7:22 PM, Shadrach said:

How did you discover the DVT? I was getting a cramp in my calf with even moderate activity. They did  an ultrasound to be on the safe side because of all the trauma to that leg. Trauma pre-dated the DVT diagnosis by nine years. It may have been there for a long time.

Discovery was different in both incidents. The first time I had gotten back from an international flight. The following weekend I aerated my lawn and felt tired. The next morning I get out of the shower and found my right leg was larger than my left leg. And it felt like the beginning of a Charlie Horse, that dull ache before the sharp pain. Had an ultrasound done and found clots from the calf up to the thigh and smaller clots behind the left knee.

The second time it happen again after a long international flight. This time it was in the left leg, in the calf and was just warm to the touch. Ultrasound again confirmed clots in the calf but nothing in other parts of either legs.

One thing to note is that there may be a time lag between the triggering event and the clots. For me, it is clear that it takes over a week before the symptoms show up after the triggering event. I should also comment that there are a number of people who have had clotting episodes and never were treated for them. I found this out when I asked one of the ultrasound techs if they ever saw evidence of previous clotting episodes (scar tissue) and the person was never treated for clots. She said it happens a lot and the person only found out because they were being treated for a more severe situation (pulmonary embolism).