Moved from “One who will” to “One Who Has”

[exM20K]

No, no... not a gear up, but rather something potentially much more dangerous.

Our little airport got a foot of snow over the weekend, and there’s only so many places to put it.  30’ wide runway compounds the problem.

So here I was, trying to successfully navigate to the runway without shaving off big snow berms with an aileron or flap trailing edge, and I was distracted. Rudder trim and flaps set, but I didn’t do the pre takeoff checklist out loud: Trim, Trim, Flaps, Mixture, Masters Mags.

The takeoff was sprightly and the nose kept coming up.  Huh?  Forgot to set takeoff trim and departed with full nose up trim.  It took a medium to hard push to keep the nose down while manually trimming down, but it is not that bad... it just took longer than I’d have liked. Plane was light and just me on board.  I can imagine worse outcomes heavy and aft CG, or IMC.

Checklists matter, especially for a six minute repositioning flight.  
be safe.

-Dan

Edited February 3, 2021 by exM20K

[0TreeLemur]

34 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Forgot to set takeoff trim and departed with full nose up trim.

Glad you were able to quickly diagnose and adjust.   Distractions, fatigue and/or unusual conditions are the enemy of thoughtfulness.   We all forget to do stuff.  Identifying mechanisms to help us realize when one of these gets in the way of the normal decision making is crucial.   I guess these mechanisms must be personalized to be effective.  Checklists in my lap don't always get my attention.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

Forgot to set takeoff trim and departed with full nose up trim.  It took a medium to hard push to keep the nose down while manually trimming down, but it is not that bad...

Did that with a friend once. The takeoff is a little early and the attitude was surprisingly flat. Push, trim, trim, trim--light bulb! <aha! I know what I did wrong>

But this was quite a relief after seeing the thread title!   . . . .   

[Mooney in Oz]

5 hours ago, exM20K said:

Checklists matter

Easily done. Despite checklists, we can all get distracted. 

In addition to the checklist and just prior to the takeoff roll, I eyeball the trim and flaps settings are correct. Both gotcha items. 

Well done in not panicking.

[mike_elliott]

It only takes once in these big bore fire breathing Mooney's to get your attention. As we have talked, in addition to checklist, develop a muscle memory of checking for incoming traffic, checking the trim and other takeoff indicators and settings, then "lights camera action" right before crossing the runway threshold. Great save, it could have been different!
 

[aviatoreb]

I have done that - ... once.  A few years ago.  A big bore airplane takes a lot of forward pressure at take off power to keep it flying at proper speeds if the trim is accidentally left full up.  That is a mistake to be avoided but if you do it once, it sticks with you.  

There was a mooney that had a fatal crash on take off almost 10 years ago near here, at Lake Placid, which was a M20J, operated by a person who had only about 20 hours in the plane.  Likely this scenario.  I guess he hadn't developed the muscle reaction to immediately push when the airplane was beginning to nose up more than desired.  It had gone straight up to departure stall then incorrect recovery to a nose down near the runway.  Mitigating circumstances was zero wind, so distraction of another plane had just announced  5 mile final to the same runway opposite end.  That airplane had been parked on my home airport that same morning, and I walked past it and admired it.  3 souls lost.  This is a serious issue.

Thanks for the post.

[exM20K]

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

It only takes once in these big bore fire breathing Mooney's to get your attention

Yup.

[HXG]

Thanks for sharing. Checklists and flows are important, but don’t forget the after landing checklist. As part of my after landing checklist, I always reset my elevator and rudder trim to the takeoff settings before shutdown. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by HXG

[exM20K]

17 minutes ago, HXG said:

Thanks for sharing. Checklists and flows are important, but don’t forget the after landing checklist. As part of my after landing checklist, I always reset my elevator and rudder trim to the takeoff settings before shutdown. 

agree.  that is a second opportunity to break a link in the chain of stupid.

-dan

[RobertGary1]

7 hours ago, HXG said:

Thanks for sharing. Checklists and flows are important, but don’t forget the after landing checklist. As part of my after landing checklist, I always reset my elevator and rudder trim to the takeoff settings before shutdown. 

Also makes it easier to climb out of the plane.

 

-Robert

[Vance Harral]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Also makes it easier to climb out of the plane.

Especially when the gut is a little rounder than it probably should be.  We call it, "trim for egress!" 

[Hank]

21 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Especially when the gut is a little rounder than it probably should be.  We call it, "trim for egress!" 

I don't get it. My trim wheel is well out of the ingress / egress path, and spinning it either way doesn't affect how the plane sits on the ground . . . .  

[MooneyMitch]

Speaking of the big bore fire breathing Mooney in a nose up trim configuration ..... and I’ve mentioned this previously elsewhere....... me doing a go around in such with full flaps, gear down, full aft trim and using full power........ask me how I discovered that full power muscle is required, along with extremely rapid forward trim wheel movement ( my hand was moving so fast on that wheel I was surprised it stayed attached to my arm ) is required in order to prevent a back flip! 

Recommendation, again, unless you absolutely need to use full power, don’t do it !! 

Yep, follow your checklist and don’t forget to remove your pitot cover either 

[David Lloyd]

I think everyone at one time or another has taken off forgetting to set the elevator trim.  And gotten to altitude only to realize the flaps are still in take off position.  Or wondered why it was climbing slowly only to realize the gear was still down.  Or taken off with the carb heat still on from last week.  Or landing with the mixture still leaned. If you're guilty, raise your hand.  Yep, typing with one hand.  It is always a sobering reminder to use the checklist...and always put the gear down.  Put your hands down now.

[RLCarter]

Both in the Mooney and the 172 I can generally tell if I’m out of trim early in the takeoff roll and adjust accordingly. I’ve got a buddy that I have to remind him to sit still and not lean forward, back or shift his weight during takeoff or landing, he’s not the standard FAA size of guy

[Vance Harral]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:29 PM, Hank said:

I don't get it. My trim wheel is well out of the ingress / egress path, and spinning it either way doesn't affect how the plane sits on the ground . . . .  

In older Mooneys with the spring bungee system on the elevator, the position of the trim wheel affects the neutral position of the yoke on the ground.  Trimming full down moves the elevator down and the yoke close to the panel, making entry/egress a little easier.  Newer Mooneys with bobweights naturally "fall" to full down elevator and yoke close to the panel regardless of trim setting.

[V1VRV2]

Agreed.... after landing checklist ELEVATOR TRIM - SET FOR TO.

[Hank]

8 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

In older Mooneys with the spring bungee system on the elevator, the position of the trim wheel affects the neutral position of the yoke on the ground.  Trimming full down moves the elevator down and the yoke close to the panel, making entry/egress a little easier.  Newer Mooneys with bobweights naturally "fall" to full down elevator and yoke close to the panel regardless of trim setting.

Ah, never paid that much attention to it. Then again, I usually land with the trim close to the Takeoff position anyway.

[Will.iam]

Another gotcha that a neighbor got to experience the hard way in his mooney was right after rotate he heard a loud bang and lots of wind. He looked back to see his baggage door missing! We have a bumpy to put it mildly runway and the door came unhitched and with rotation the air scooped it right off the side of the plane. He made the pattern back and landed to walk the runway FOD walk shame and retrieved his door cursing that he forgot to lock it before flight. Ever since i heard that story i have modified my checklist to include baggage door locked. Three times now i could not remember if i locked it or not and had to get back out to double check. Twice it was locked but one time it was not. I said that right there is worth it as i don’t ever want to pay repairs for that possibility. 

[carusoam]

Phrase of the day... awarded to Will!  

FOD walk of shame... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Ibra]

On 2/3/2021 at 1:41 AM, exM20K said:

Checklists matter, especially for a six minute repositioning flight

The part where I found paper checklist & memory checklist matters most is pre-takeoff, we can always sort out things with eough time in the air or after you are on the ground but it gets hectic on takeoffs... 

Funny one was door open on takeoff just rotation then losing half of my papers, all went out of the cockpit over the nearby farm 

Worst one was leaving carb heat hot on a short wet grass runway with trees ahead before I aborted the takeoff !

Glad I fly fuel injected engine in long paved runways now and keep a tidy cockpit 

[Nukemzzz]

My E is always on max nose up trim...  this might be because the combined weight of my instructor and I is 500lbs...but I'm not so sure.  

In all seriousness, setting up for cruise I roll the trim back a half turn, maybe one turn, then its back to full nose up on landing and just leave it full up for takeoff.  Does this seem normal to you?  Below is my loaded W&B for our training flights.  I just had the plane weighed in December.  I guess I'm questioning if my CG is further forward than I think.  I would have thought that one would run out of nose up trim at the Fore CG Limit.

 

[Yetti]

I go through the before takeoff checklist  Then I sit there for a second and at least recheck the trim.   I also check the trim when I hop in the plane for first flight.   Ya I forgot to reset it twice.  That was enough.

[Hank]

6 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

My E is always on max nose up trim...  this might be because the combined weight of my instructor and I is 500lbs...but I'm not so sure.  

In all seriousness, setting up for cruise I roll the trim back a half turn, maybe one turn, then its back to full nose up on landing and just leave it full up for takeoff.  Does this seem normal to you?  Below is my loaded W&B for our training flights.  I just had the plane weighed in December.  I guess I'm questioning if my CG is further forward than I think.  I would have thought that one would run out of nose up trim at the Fore CG Limit.

Good Lord! I've never tried a Full Nose Up trim on takeoff in my C!

My normal solo takeoff trim is for the bottom of the indicator to touch the top of the Takeoff line (Flaps Up). If heavy, I center the indicator on the line; if near gross, I add Takeoff Flaps.

[Nukemzzz]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Good Lord! I've never tried a Full Nose Up trim on takeoff in my C!

My normal solo takeoff trim is for the bottom of the indicator to touch the top of the Takeoff line (Flaps Up). If heavy, I center the indicator on the line; if near gross, I add Takeoff Flaps.

If nothing else I need to be very careful on my solo flight if I’m having to use full nose up because of the nose heavy weight. When he gets out I’ll be solo 200lbs up front instead of dual 500lbs.