Any thoughts on

[jshill]

All

General question. Mike Busch runs a "professional maintenance manager" program.  (http://www.savvymx.com/)

He lists some experience w/ Mooney, but am curious as to whether anyone has any first hand experience.

I've always assumed that the service at MSC's is solid, but some comments on these boards suggest the contrary. Second opinions on major repairs often helpful.  (Historically, I went with whatever my mechanic said.)

Thoughts?

Jeff Hill KFCM

[Parker_Woodruff]

Most MSCs are decent.  Willmar is good (where you're from).

Mike Busch is respectable.  I would want to know what "Major repairs" you're concerned about.

[John Pleisse]

Savvy rarely equates to prudent. I have used Mooney Service Centers all along. Flying costs money, there are no easy ways around good maintanence. I add oil and gas and turn the key.

[Becca]

Quote: jshill

All

General question. Mike Busch runs a "professional maintenance manager" program.  (http://www.savvymx.com/)

He lists some experience w/ Mooney, but am curious as to whether anyone has any first hand experience.

I've always assumed that the service at MSC's is solid, but some comments on these boards suggest the contrary. Second opinions on major repairs often helpful.  (Historically, I went with whatever my mechanic said.)

Thoughts?

Jeff Hill KFCM

[John Pleisse]

When someone publicly touts running their engines and cylinders 900 past TBO on one hand and wants to offer ways to save a buck or two on the other...I see red flags. Sure, he can make prudent decisions about his own engines, but publicly purporting the notion sends the wrong message to people.

I have read his syllabi. Great curriculum. $500 for a weekend.....no so much.

 

[jetdriven]

He is also an IA and I think his position is credible. He says dont replace something until it needs it.   His work is all signed off and he flies the aircraft.  Isnt that what it's all about?

[John Pleisse]

Quote: jetdriven

He is also an IA and I think his position is credible. He says dont replace something until it needs it.   His work is all signed off and he flies the aircraft.  Isnt that what it's all about?

[jetdriven]

His theory is that TBO is just a recommendation.  And it is based on severe service. 

 

Does the failure of the part cause a hazard or a dispatch reliability problem? Is there an AD or a FAR 23 mandate for it to be replaced on a schedule?  If not, RUN TILL FAILURE.

 

 

Someone doesnt have to replace something based on a calendar or a hours fgure. It is not required, and in the case of pulling off all the cylinders on a Cirrus for a top overhaul, when you reassemble the engine the bearings shift, causing a rod to throw and a crash. How safe is that?

 

[Becca]

Quote: N4352H

When someone publicly touts running their engines and cylinders 900 past TBO on one hand and wants to offer ways to save a buck or two on the other...I see red flags. Sure, he can make prudent decisions about his own engines, but publicly purporting the notion sends the wrong message to people.

I have read his syllabi. Great curriculum. $500 for a weekend.....no so much.

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: jetdriven

His theory is that TBO is just a recommendation.  And it is based on severe service. 

 

Does the failure of the part cause a hazard or a dispatch reliability problem? Is there an AD or a FAR 23 mandate for it to be replaced on a schedule?  If not, RUN TILL FAILURE.

 

 

Someone doesnt have to replace something based on a calendar or a hours fgure. It is not required, and in the case of pulling off all the cylinders on a Cirrus for a top overhaul, when you reassemble the engine the bearings shift, causing a rod to throw and a crash. How safe is that?

 

[jlunseth]

Hi Jeff.  I am at KFCM also, and use Willmar quite a bit.  They are good, and best part is that they are in rural MN so prices are not "citified."  Would be glad to talk to you more about them if you want to PM me.  I keep my plane at Thunderbird, where is yours?

[KSMooniac]

Quote: N4352H

[jetdriven]

Airlines are "cheap", by that definition too.

Here we go again with voodoo feelings vs. hard data.   I work for an airline, and everything is run on condition. We have engines with 20,000 on the last overhaul.  These airplanes have a safety record soem 50 times better than your "open checkbook" airplane.  Throwing money at the problem is not a solution. People soend 10K getting their autopilot worked on, and it still does not work. If you have the service manuals, and do some troubleshooting, and have an A&P with that mindset as well, you can fix it for 10% of the amount, and it works when it leaves.

Again, please quantify with data how replacing parts based on some calendar or hour limit improves safety? The part that is on your plane is working. The part you are putting on it may have an infant mortality event.

We just installed an electric ADI in our plane, and now we are going to run our 800 hour vacuum pump till failure.  Yes, right up until it quits.  What are the consequences of it failing? none. Does it affect safety?  no.  dispatch reliability?  no.

Prop has 12 years since new and 1400 hours.  Past the McCauley TBO.  Airworthy? yes.  Legal? yes.  Does replacing it with an overhauled unit make that next single hour more safe?  I believe, less safe.  What about the next ten hours? It might be trouble free, where it is as reliable as the one we took off. But more safe?  no.   Its just money.

Our cylinders are first run and yes, we are going to take those past TBO unless there is a reason to pull them off.  A reason, not a feeling.   So, there it is.

 

[Becca]

Quote: jetdriven

Airlines are "cheap", by that definition too.

Here we go again with voodoo feelings vs. hard data.   I work for an airline, and everything is run on condition. We have engines with 20,000 on the last overhaul.  These airplanes have a safety record soem 50 times better than your "open checkbook" airplane.  Throwing money at the problem is not a solution. People soend 10K getting their autopilot worked on, and it still does not work. If you have the service manuals, and do some troubleshooting, and have an A&P with that mindset as well, you can fix it for 10% of the amount, and it works when it leaves.

Again, please quantify with data how replacing parts based on some calendar or hour limit improves safety? The part that is on your plane is working. The part you are putting on it may have an infant mortality event.

We just installed an electric ADI in our plane, and now we are going to run our 800 hour vacuum pump till failure.  Yes, right up until it quits.  What are the consequences of it failing? none. Does it affect safety?  no.  dispatch reliability?  no.

Prop has 12 years since new and 1400 hours.  Past the McCauley TBO.  Airworthy? yes.  Legal? yes.  Does replacing it with an overhauled unit make that next single hour more safe?  I believe, less safe.  What about the next ten hours? It might be trouble free, where it is as reliable as the one we took off. But more safe?  no.   Its just money.

Our cylinders are first run and yes, we are going to take those past TBO unless there is a reason to pull them off.  A reason, not a feeling.   So, there it is.

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: KSMooniac

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: N4352H

One more time....publicly touting flying engines past TBO by 900 hours, or failure when you are pitching weekend seminars and engine management theories isn't savvy. It lacks prudence and ethicacy.

Your results may vary.

[danb35]

Quote: N4352H

publicly touting flying engines past TBO by 900 hours, or failure when you are pitching weekend seminars and engine management theories isn't savvy. It lacks prudence and ethicacy.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: jetdriven

Airlines are "cheap", by that definition too.

Here we go again with voodoo feelings vs. hard data.   I work for an airline, and everything is run on condition. We have engines with 20,000 on the last overhaul.  These airplanes have a safety record soem 50 times better than your "open checkbook" airplane.  Throwing money at the problem is not a solution. People soend 10K getting their autopilot worked on, and it still does not work. If you have the service manuals, and do some troubleshooting, and have an A&P with that mindset as well, you can fix it for 10% of the amount, and it works when it leaves.

Again, please quantify with data how replacing parts based on some calendar or hour limit improves safety? The part that is on your plane is working. The part you are putting on it may have an infant mortality event.

We just installed an electric ADI in our plane, and now we are going to run our 800 hour vacuum pump till failure.  Yes, right up until it quits.  What are the consequences of it failing? none. Does it affect safety?  no.  dispatch reliability?  no.

Prop has 12 years since new and 1400 hours.  Past the McCauley TBO.  Airworthy? yes.  Legal? yes.  Does replacing it with an overhauled unit make that next single hour more safe?  I believe, less safe.  What about the next ten hours? It might be trouble free, where it is as reliable as the one we took off. But more safe?  no.   Its just money.

Our cylinders are first run and yes, we are going to take those past TBO unless there is a reason to pull them off.  A reason, not a feeling.   So, there it is.

 

[Becca]

Quote: danb35

Why should he not say that his engines continue to run fine at 900 hours past TBO?  Are you suggesting that it's imprudent to run an engine past TBO?  If so, what factual basis do you have for this opinion?

And if he practices what he preaches (and is entirely willing to put his own butt on the line), how is he unethical for promoting it?

[Becca]

Quote: N4352H

And? Is it for sale???

Let's see with the gear-up and in this condition, maybe a Savvy Aviator graduate would love to have it.  Of course, they could recognize the value in something that hasn't yet failed.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Inspecting parts to make sure they are not in bad condition is different than pencil-whipping annuals. 

[jetdriven]

Please answer my question.

Again, please quantify with data how replacing parts based on some calendar or hour limit improves safety?

Our aircraft is not for sale.  But when it is, the hours past TBO were free to us, and we will price it at market.  A nice shiny paint job - it will sell for top dollar, and unlike many who buy airplanes on this board from open checkbook owners, ours will not need a 20K annual at an MSC, because our "worthless, geared up rebuilt airplane" has no discrepancies.

Quote: N4352H

And? Is it for sale???

Let's see with the gear-up and in this condition, maybe a Savvy Aviator graduate would love to have it.  Of course, they could recognize the value in something that hasn't yet failed.

 

[Becca]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Inspecting parts to make sure they are not in bad condition is different than pencil-whipping annuals. 

[Shadrach]

Quote: N4352H

Savvy rarely equates to prudent. I have used Mooney Service Centers all along. Flying costs money, there are no easy ways around good maintanence. I add oil and gas and turn the key.

[jetdriven]

Parker, we even have the Century II and III service manual. Our airplane was rocking gently in roll. Like a degree or two sometimes.   After a few hours I diagnosed attitude indicator failure, it was off level about 2-3 degrees at times.  After 50 hours it got worse, but I knew it was coming.  Stuff doesnt always suddenly totally fail.  A shop might have rerplaced 5K in autopilot parts when the autopilot was fine to begin with.

Know your aircraft.  Manage risk.

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I don't have nearly the knowledge of the engineers and A&Ps on this board. But this stuff makes sense if you ditch the preconceived notions you have. you really do have to make an effort. Have you opened up the Bendix/RSA training manual to learn how the fuel system in your IO-360 works? That's how deep I've had to go to help my understanding of our engines. 

 

Note: I has not taken the APS courses. I had never learned about what LOP even was until about 3 years ino being a rated pilot. I have, however done significant reading on both LOP and maintenance. 

 

Note 2: My airplane is primarily maintained at an MSC