Albuquerque to Scottsdale advice

[kevinw]

I'm looking for some advice from people familiar with flying in the southwest. I'm planning a two leg flight from Iowa to Scottsdale, AZ in early February. I've read some previous posts on this topic but need a little more specific advice. First leg is easy, KCIN to KLAA. The second leg goes from KLAA down the east side of the rocky mountains turning west to ABQ. Here's where i need the advice. My planned IFR route once reaching ABQ is ABQ V190 LAKEY KSDL at 14,000 at about 11am or so. I've read about afternoon storms and severe turbulence over New Mexico. I'll of course get a wx briefing but do I need to be as concerned about this in February as I would in the summer? Second, it looks like coming into the Phoenix area from the east I'll need to lose a lot of altitude fast. Any advice about this would be helpful and more importantly, flying the reverse route home, performance requirements getting out of there. Aircraft is a 98 Ovation, 280hp with two onboard plus a small dog, luggage and full fuel leaving the area. I weigh about 175 and my wife 125. Thanks in advance for the help.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

The weather in New Mexico in February is very different from in the summer. Keep an eye on winds aloft over the mountains... that's what causes turbulence in the winter. In summer it's convective activity.

I've flown my Acclaim from Denver to Phoenix (Chandler) and it's a fairly steep descent, but not unmanageable by any means. If you're arriving IFR then ATC will step you down. As far as your return flight goes, out climbing the terrain is not a problem in a turbo.

Enjoy your trip!

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, kevinw said:

I'm looking for some advice from people familiar with flying in the southwest. I'm planning a two leg flight from Iowa to Scottsdale, AZ in early February. I've read some previous posts on this topic but need a little more specific advice. First leg is easy, KCIN to KLAA. The second leg goes from KLAA down the east side of the rocky mountains turning west to ABQ. Here's where i need the advice. My planned IFR route once reaching ABQ is ABQ V190 LAKEY KSDL at 14,000 at about 11am or so. I've read about afternoon storms and severe turbulence over New Mexico. I'll of course get a wx briefing but do I need to be as concerned about this in February as I would in the summer? Second, it looks like coming into the Phoenix area from the east I'll need to lose a lot of altitude fast. Any advice about this would be helpful and more importantly, flying the reverse route home, performance requirements getting out of there. Aircraft is a 98 Ovation, 280hp with two onboard plus a small dog, luggage and full fuel leaving the area. I weigh about 175 and my wife 125. Thanks in advance for the help.

Don't file IFR unless you don't have a choice and if you do have to file IFR, don't go. Fly as high as possible. I got the crap beat out of me in March/April one year coming home to Tucson from ABQ at 16,500 ft. Go a bit south into PHX to avoid the airspaces and allow yourself time to get down. Unless you MUST go into SDL, go into CHD, FFZ or DVT. They are orders of magnitude cheaper and easier.

[kortopates]

I personally won't rely on that route in winter. It may work out fine but a more reliable winter crossing is further south by El Paso. Check out  EWM V94 TFD  - this route has MEAs no higher than 9000' versus going through ABQ with MEAs around 11000' - it can make a big difference if there is any weather to be concerned with. If you end up with excellent weather during the trip, you can cross further north if you'd like.

[EricJ]

It's severe clear here much of the time, so the likelihood of being able to do it VFR is generally pretty high.    It's a nice trip VFR, but NM and northern AZ are high terrain everywhere, so you just have to plan on a reasonably high cruising altitude. 

Dealing with weather is an issue anywhere.   If it is bad along the route find another route or wait.

 

[PeteMc]

If you're not used to high altitude, in addition to what everyone else has said, you may not want to go FULL Rich on landing at ABQ.  First time there in a Cherokee Six I had started my trip basically at sea level on the east coast.  Gorgeous (hot) day at ABQ and I did my usual landing, which included mixture FULL Rich and actually greased it on... 

Rolled out to the next Rwy exit and as I slowed to turn off the the Rwy the engine died.  Luckily I didn't have a brain freeze and actually instantly knew what happened.  Turned a couple of tweaks out on the mixture and got the engine to start right back up. 

For the rest of the landing as I continued west I just didn't go full rich.  Remember that at low power it doesn't matter how much you lean you will not hurt the engine.  Just remember you primary training where your CFI probably taught you to use a flat open hand and shove EVERYTHING full in if you have to do a go around.  One other note, this was years ago and the discussion of Ground Leaning was a prevalent.  But even then I had done some research and knew to lean for all ground ops too.  Which I did from that point on too.  But ABQ was really my first airport above 2,000' and wasn't really into the High Alt mode yet.

[kevinw]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll take a look at a more southern route and watch the weather closely. I have to get out of the midwest first and that can be a challenge in February. If it's IFR I'll wait or just drive. With no experience flying down there I won't take any chances. I planned on filing IFR because I find it easier to transition into busy airspace. Regarding the destination airport, SDL is the most convenient based on location but I am also considering FFZ. I called Ross Aviation at SDL this morning to check on fees and they have a $10 security fee, no landing or airport fee, $25/night ramp fee or I can park in the transient ramp for $5/night. They also have self serve fuel at $5.21/gallon. I had read there are tons of student pilots at FFZ and DVT and that discouraged me. Thanks again guys!

[kevinw]

5 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

If you're not used to high altitude, in addition to what everyone else has said, you may not want to go FULL Rich on landing at ABQ.  First time there in a Cherokee Six I had started my trip basically at sea level on the east coast.  Gorgeous (hot) day at ABQ and I did my usual landing, which included mixture FULL Rich and actually greased it on... 

Rolled out to the next Rwy exit and as I slowed to turn off the the Rwy the engine died.  Luckily I didn't have a brain freeze and actually instantly knew what happened.  Turned a couple of tweaks out on the mixture and got the engine to start right back up. 

For the rest of the landing as I continued west I just didn't go full rich.  Remember that at low power it doesn't matter how much you lean you will not hurt the engine.  Just remember you primary training where your CFI probably taught you to use a flat open hand and shove EVERYTHING full in if you have to do a go around.  One other note, this was years ago and the discussion of Ground Leaning was a prevalent.  But even then I had done some research and knew to lean for all ground ops too.  Which I did from that point on too.  But ABQ was really my first airport above 2,000' and wasn't really into the High Alt mode yet.

I won't be landing there, just passing the VOR but that's good advice for the future. I've listened to and read a lot about leaning the mixture when taking off from higher altitude airports but not much about landing so thanks for the info!

[Bolter]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

Don't file IFR unless you don't have a choice and if you do have to file IFR, don't go. 

@KLRDMD Can you expand on this?  Do you mean if the winter weather is IFR, do not go, you can count on icing and other bad things?  OR are you discouraging filing IFR to get into the PHX area for some reason?  I have filed IFR into PHX area multiple times without issues.

-dan

[kevinw]

Perhaps this route, with help from @kortopates, would be a safer bet. Won't add much more time in flight either.

[Matt Ward]

I'm based at BJC and just went down to RYN for Thanksgiving.  There are 3 basic ways to do it: 1) the northern route over the CO/WY border, 2) the direct route through the mountains (either over Rollins or Monarch most likely and then either through the Alamosa valley or west towards PGA), or 3) the southern route which is similar to what you've found.  In the winter, the southern route you've described is going to be bumpy, I'd bet.  The rotors coming off the rocks near ABQ and even on the east side near La Veta / Las Vegas are some of the worst I've seen in CO (consistently).  The northern route is going to be far less technical and give you much better outs.  The southern is likely the most tame of the 3 terrain-wise but riddled with MOAs and restricted areas.  Plus, it seems like to me that area near Big Bend has a penchant to develop a lot of messy low pressure systems.  

Another note is the airspace around PHX seems to me to be some of the most congested, busy airspaces around.  Flying east of PHX seems more direct but I always seem to get a diversion.  And, again, few outs.  I like the route west of PHX personally.

Anyways, I'd probably prioritize the northern route as I think it's a good compromise between efficiency, outs, wx, etc.  I tend to optimize for the windward side when I can.  The mountain waves are no joke.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, kevinw said:

Thanks for all the advice. I'll take a look at a more southern route and watch the weather closely. I have to get out of the midwest first and that can be a challenge in February. If it's IFR I'll wait or just drive. With no experience flying down there I won't take any chances. I planned on filing IFR because I find it easier to transition into busy airspace. Regarding the destination airport, SDL is the most convenient based on location but I am also considering FFZ. I called Ross Aviation at SDL this morning to check on fees and they have a $10 security fee, no landing or airport fee, $25/night ramp fee or I can park in the transient ramp for $5/night. They also have self serve fuel at $5.21/gallon. I had read there are tons of student pilots at FFZ and DVT and that discouraged me. Thanks again guys!

Instead of going further south, consider crossing the divide at Alamosa. I’ve found it is usually smoother than Albuquerque and it will save you a bunch of time.

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, Bolter said:

@KLRDMD Can you expand on this?  Do you mean if the winter weather is IFR, do not go, you can count on icing and other bad things?  OR are you discouraging filing IFR to get into the PHX area for some reason?  I have filed IFR into PHX area multiple times without issues.

If the weather is bad enough that you have to file IFR its is bad enough to stay on the ground. If you file IFR you are under ATC control and that can sometimes send you on wild goose chases, especially around PHX airspace. With VFR weather, just go VFR direct.

[N201MKTurbo]

And, come on man, we have to fly around this hornets nest of flight training every day, It is just flying. I was amazed at the lack of traffic everywhere on my recent trip to Pittsburgh. What happened to all the airplanes? So hay, If we have to deal with it ya'all can deal with it. Heck, if you want the full experience, go to TFD and shoot some approaches! 

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, kevinw said:

Thanks for all the advice. I'll take a look at a more southern route and watch the weather closely. I have to get out of the midwest first and that can be a challenge in February. If it's IFR I'll wait or just drive. With no experience flying down there I won't take any chances. I planned on filing IFR because I find it easier to transition into busy airspace. Regarding the destination airport, SDL is the most convenient based on location but I am also considering FFZ. I called Ross Aviation at SDL this morning to check on fees and they have a $10 security fee, no landing or airport fee, $25/night ramp fee or I can park in the transient ramp for $5/night. They also have self serve fuel at $5.21/gallon. I had read there are tons of student pilots at FFZ and DVT and that discouraged me. Thanks again guys!

All of the airports here are busy, including SDL.   If you want probability of less congestion and hassle, SDL is not your best choice.   There is a lot of training at SDL, too, which has to comingle with a lot of jet and turbine traffic coming in, and single-engine recip aircraft are way down the pecking order compared to the turbines at SDL.   Landing clearances get cancelled on final pretty regularly if you're going to make some jet have to go around or circle.   DVT is my home field, and I've done a lot of training and flying out of SDL.   I much prefer DVT.   DVT, FFZ, CHD and IWA all have multiple parallel runways.   SDL has one.   Around here it makes a noticeable difference.

Either DVT or FFZ would be fine and more amenable to non-turbine GA traffic, and won't gouge you on fuel like SDL.    If you want to be a serious CB on fuel prices, stop at St John's (SJN) on the way in.   It's often the cheapest fuel in the state and is a nice little, sleepy, rural airport.

Depending on what part of town you need to be, just picking the closest airport isn't a bad plan.   SDL is probably the worst choice for recip GA, but it's not terrible other than the high fuel prices and higher likelihood of a little controller hijinks to keep you from interfering with the jets.  

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by EricJ

[kevinw]

All of the airports here are busy, including SDL.   If you want probability of less congestion and hassle, SDL is not your best choice.   There is a lot of training at SDL, too, which has to comingle with a lot of jet and turbine traffic coming in, and single-engine recip aircraft are way down the pecking order compared to the turbines at SDL.   Landing clearances get cancelled on final pretty regularly if you're going to make some jet have to go around or circle.   DVT is my home field, and I've done a lot of training and flying out of SDL.   I much prefer DVT.   DVT, FFZ, CHD and IWA all have multiple parallel runways.   SDL has one.   Around here it makes a noticeable difference.
Either DVT or FFZ would be fine and more amenable to non-turbine GA traffic, and won't gouge you on fuel like SDL.    If you want to be a serious CB on fuel prices, stop at St John's (SJN) on the way in.   It's often the cheapest fuel in the state and is a nice little, sleepy, rural airport.
Depending on what part of town you need to be, just picking the closest airport isn't a bad plan.   SDL is probably the worst choice for recip GA, but it's not terrible other than the high fuel prices and higher likelihood of a little controller hijinks to keep you from interfering with the jets.  
 

This seems to be popular opinion. I’ll take your advice (and the others who mentioned it earlier) and plan on one of the other airports in the area. Thanks Eric, this is very helpful. I appreciate the details


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[kevinw]

And, come on man, we have to fly around this hornets nest of flight training every day, It is just flying. I was amazed at the lack of traffic everywhere on my recent trip to Pittsburgh. What happened to all the airplanes? So hay, If we have to deal with it ya'all can deal with it. Heck, if you want the full experience, go to TFD and shoot some approaches! 

Ok, you got me on that one. I guess I’m lucky I don’t have to deal with it like you guys do. Just looking for the easiest way into the area. I appreciate all the feedback


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[Smiles201]

If you are not used to mountains and wide open, unpopulated areas it can be uncomfortable. A longer route south through Albuquerque Deming Tucson Phoenix may  be a more pleasant intro. If vfr going  west and then south you may want to pass over meteor crater, for nice view. Important to have warm clothes and good emergency kit, as pilots have gone down, survived, but been lost due to the elements. In recent years that included Steve Fossett.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Smiles201 said:

If you are not used to mountains and wide open, unpopulated areas it can be uncomfortable. A longer route south through Albuquerque Deming Tucson Phoenix may  be a more pleasant intro. If vfr going  west and then south you may want to pass over meteor crater, for nice view. Important to have warm clothes and good emergency kit, as pilots have gone down, survived, but been lost due to the elements. In recent years that included Steve Fossett.

While I wholeheartedly agree that you should have survival gear when flying over inhospitable terrain, per this Wikipedia entry, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Fossett  was killed on impact. Do you have other info?

[zaitcev]

14 hours ago, kevinw said:

My planned IFR route once reaching ABQ is ABQ V190 LAKEY KSDL at 14,000 at about 11am or so. I've read about afternoon storms and severe turbulence over New Mexico. I'll of course get a wx briefing but do I need to be as concerned about this in February as I would in the summer? Second, it looks like coming into the Phoenix area from the east I'll need to lose a lot of altitude fast. Any advice about this would be helpful and more importantly, flying the reverse route home, performance requirements getting out of there.

Regarding the afternoon turbulence, as you surmised it's a summer time thing. Even then I never hit severe turbulence in NM. In fact, not even moderate. My primary flight instructor told me that he's taken a smack upon a canopy in Diamond once hard enough that it knocked him out. But that was in Oklahoma, not in New Mexico.

I learned quickly to steer to the upwind side of mountains, in order to avoid the orographic turbulence. But you're going to be high enough for that not to matter. Except for the wave, of course.

As far as navigating to Scottsdale, I don't see just why that is a problem IFR. I only visited Phoenix area VFR and thus I had to be on a sharp lookout for the Class Bravo versus the rocks. But if you're IFR, all you need to do is to slow down ahead of time, so that you can lose altitude without gaining speed, right? I fly an E with electric flaps, so if I get under 120 mph indicated, I'm golden: as soon as the airplane is dirtied, I can dive as much as I want.

About the survival, make sure you have water and trash bags. Most of the route is mostly flat. Now, coming up to Phoenix the terrain gets inhospitable: steep slopes, woods, reservoirs. That area is unpleasant, and the city itself is better only marginally. But it is what it is.

Edited December 31, 2020 by zaitcev

[zaitcev]

12 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Unless you MUST go into SDL, go into CHD, FFZ or DVT. They are orders of magnitude cheaper and easier.

Why no love for GYR? Worked great for me.

[ArtVandelay]

Why no love for GYR? Worked great for me.

A lot farther from Scottsdale area and have to be routed around bravo airspace.

I like Cutter at DVT.

Fly in the morning, watch out for the balloons. I flew IFR at 14000’ and don’t remember any having any problems. Flying into Albuquerque I got slam dunked (coming from the east), speed brakes help here.

[N201MKTurbo]

8 hours ago, kevinw said:

Ok, you got me on that one. I guess I’m lucky I don’t have to deal with it like you guys do. Just looking for the easiest way into the area. I appreciate all the feedback


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When you actually nail down your flight, and if you come in VFR, I can give advice on the last few miles coming in here.

[Matt_AZ]

+1 for KDVT. I live in Scottsdale but I prefer DVT to SDL. 

[jlunseth]

OK, here is what I see. Normally aspirated, although an Ovation so you can still go high, but small dog, that means to me no oxygen airspace. I would limit myself to 12500 and would prefer lower.

What you don't really understand unless you are from there is that most of the country between ABQ and PHX is flat, flatter, and flattest. Its high, so when you look at a chart and see 6 or 8,000' you think it must be mountainous, but it is not, it is high plains. I spent a summer as a kid walking the desert west of ABQ staking  uranium claims, there are plenty of arroyos and mesquite brush that would complicate an offield landing, and there are some cliffs and volcanic plugs, but there is also plenty of open flat space. The main mountain ranges to worry about are the Rockies and the Sandias (the mountains just east of ABQ). The mesquite is generally a little heavier in the northern part of the route, esp. along the CO - NM border, but I personally would not let that change my route.

I agree with the guys saying the west side of the Rockies would be smoother, but given your altitude limit I would not cross them. Mountain waves are worse within about 2500 of the tops and with a 12500 limit you would be in that general range. If you must cross, take one of the Victor routes, they generally were chosen because they are lower than adjacent, direct routes. I agree that the Alamosa route is pretty good once you get to Alamosa, but to get there from the east you have to make a crossing of the Rockies and I just would not do that with your altitude limit and in the winter.

Afternoon convection this time of year is not generally an issue. Plenty of VFR. 

Your route is the conservative one, but if it were me I would not go that far out of the way. I would go to Las Vegas, NM and then  go VFR to sneak around the southern toe of the Rockies, it is not high there, it is just a matter of what you are comfortable with, and you don't have to go very far south of of LVS to reach flat land to cross north of the Sandias. Between the Rockies to the north and the Sandias to the south it is mostly flat, mesquite brush, high plains. I would transition just north of ABQ and then go pretty much direct to PHX. There is a chunk of mountain around Flagstaff, I would stay south of that. If you don't want to enter all that MOA airspace east of PHX I would go north of it rather than south. 

Yes, turbulence is always possible out there, but I have found it mostly over the mountains not so much over the flat plains, and that is what the majority of the route from ABQ to PHX is. To the extent there are mountains, they are just chunks of mountains and if you are concerned about them you can fly around.

I would not worry about congested airspace around PHX. If you are concerned about training traffic there is just as much of that around Grand Forks as there is around PHX. There is an organization in PHX that publishes a training area map that you can import into Foreflight and display. https://aftw.org/ . I have flown around lots of congested airspace, such as Chicago, it is much worse out east and through FL than it is around PHX.

I spent a few days training out of KIWA there last year, I would not characterize the training areas as very congested that time of year, and almost always VFR, we had one day out of four with some cloud cover and a very little rain. We were at all training altitudes from about 12 on down, we did some protracted spins so moved vertically through the airspace quickly. I just was not a problem. Coming in to PHX I would want to at least be on Flight Following though, so I have ATC's help.