M20c panel upgrade in progress

[Capt Brad]

I'm doing a panel upgrade on my '68 20c, dual G5's, new com panel, etc..  I'm looking for advice about any 'gotchas' that might happen during this build.

Is the EDM 830 a primary instrument? Can I remove the manifold / fuel pressure gauge and the prop RPM / Hobbs meter?

Any thoughts about keeping the tilt of the left side instrument panel the same or going with a 'flat' panel.

Any worries about the panel shock mounts? The current ones don't look like they are original.

The new panel is still in the drawing stage so mods can still be added/removed.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks

[Hank]

You have a Hobbs meter? No sign of one ever being in my 1970 C.

Good luck with your project! Be sure to post pictures afterwards!!

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Capt Brad said:

I'm doing a panel upgrade on my '68 20c, dual G5's, new com panel, etc..  I'm looking for advice about any 'gotchas' that might happen during this build.

Is the EDM 830 a primary instrument? Can I remove the manifold / fuel pressure gauge and the prop RPM / Hobbs meter?

 

 

It is not primary, you need a 900 to remove manifold/fuel pressure/tach.

You can remove the Hobbs, no need for it unless you are renting out the plane and want to use it to charge for time used.

I just did something similar. Upgraded the 830 to a 900 and removed the factory gauges. Added a GNC355 and a PMA405B. I already had the plat panel with the standard six pack to start with, glad a previous owner had done that. I would flush mount the G5's and 830 (or 900 if you step up to that) if you are going through the trouble of cutting a new panel. I have the brackets to flush mount my G5's and 900 but waiting to put in an AP, looking like the GFC500, and will cut a new panel and flush mount those at that time.

Original Panel 4 years ago.

New panel

[Nukemzzz]

Flat panel and vertical panel aren't mutually exclusive.   You make a flat panel vertical by adding spacers to the top.  Verity that your gyros are looking for vertical alignment however...should say on them the expected angle. 

830 isn't primary, you'll need to keep primary or upgrade to the more expensive version of the same thing.

Gotchas: 

This is harder than it seems...be prepared for frustration and a whole lot of work. 

You'll need sign-off from an friendly avionics guy or A&P if you do this yourself.  He may want to take it apart and check everything per the manual and requirements part by part when you are done. Suggest understanding that upfront and getting agreements on exactly what he/she will want to see, witness, inspect.  I've been waiting months now for the avionics guy to get around to checking and signing mine off...hope there isn't any surprises coming.

The pilot side gages just barely fit all together in that hole.  Its really hard to get them laid out so they fit without hitting the dash frame, especially when you have floating rubber mounts.

You should have rubber cylinders with threads, made by lord, on each end as panel mounts.  They are likely s shaped now and some are broken.

If you move a vacuum powered gryo its a pain because the vacuum lines are stiff and probably need to be replaced when you touch them.

Beware of cross tubes behind the gages if you move things.  They limit the depth of some instrument placement.

Lasar has a couple of pilot side aluminum panels you can buy and and install kit.  They also have a co-pilot side.  They won't chage them for you though, so if you use them, be prepared to hand cut the rest with a jig saw or something if  you want to add holes and such.  My waterjet guy said he couldn't pick up their panel and add stuff from my cad drawing so I still have the right side Lasar panel if interested.

You'll need your compass recalibrated when you are done.

Mine:  

 

[chriscalandro]

For the amount of work involved are you sure you want G5’s?  If you are thinking about going to glass now is the time to do it. 
 

a basic Dynon package runs about 16k  I believe. By the time you’re done getting everything put together and re plumbed you’re not going to be too far off already. 

[DXB]

3 hours ago, Capt Brad said:

I'm doing a panel upgrade on my '68 20c, dual G5's, new com panel, etc..  I'm looking for advice about any 'gotchas' that might happen during this build.

Is the EDM 830 a primary instrument? Can I remove the manifold / fuel pressure gauge and the prop RPM / Hobbs meter?

Any thoughts about keeping the tilt of the left side instrument panel the same or going with a 'flat' panel.

Any worries about the panel shock mounts? The current ones don't look like they are original.

The new panel is still in the drawing stage so mods can still be added/removed.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Always an exciting and challenging project, but so worth it, particularly if you want to fly IFR.

Put an EDM900 at the right end of the left panel - it's primary - the 830 is not

I took the tilt out when I did mine - works out well, but there's a bit more careful measurement, labor, fabrication. I don't see any real downside to keeping the tilt. 

With the modern avionics, the shock mounts become less important.

Strongly consider doing something other than the 2 G5s.  An Aspen E5 now includes the digital HSI and comes in at comparable cost, offers more functionality - downside is needing a backup AI in some form.  Two GI 275s offer a TON more functionality, with added cost.  

What autopilot do you have and/or plan to install?  I'd probably include a spot in the panel for the Garmin GFC500 whenever the approval comes.  The Trutrak and similar options are very appealing for the budget but appear likely to stay in vaporware land for the C model for sometime longer.

It's tempting to just do the Dynon system, but that also comes with the issue of having to wait for the autopilot.

 

 

  

[Immelman]

EDM900 is what you want... certified as primary, allows you to get rid of the old stuff. I am not sure why anyone would go through the time and expense of an 830 at the moment....

[Oldguy]

4 hours ago, Skates97 said:

It is not primary, you need a 900 to remove manifold/fuel pressure/tach.

 

4 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

830 isn't primary, you'll need to keep primary or upgrade to the more expensive version of the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, DXB said:

Put an EDM900 at the right end of the left panel - it's primary - the 830 is not

 

1 hour ago, Immelman said:

EDM900 is what you want... certified as primary, allows you to get rid of the old stuff.

Just to reinforce what these four have said, get the 900 now before you buy the 830 and THEN decide in a year or so you should have gotten the 900 to start.

 

Don't ask me how I know...

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

Always an exciting and challenging project, but so worth it, particularly if you want to fly IFR.

Put an EDM900 at the right end of the left panel - it's primary - the 830 is not

I took the tilt out when I did mine - works out well, but there's a bit more careful measurement, labor, fabrication. I don't see any real downside to keeping the tilt. 

With the modern avionics, the shock mounts become less important.

Strongly consider doing something other than the 2 G5s.  An Aspen E5 now includes the digital HSI and comes in at comparable cost, offers more functionality - downside is needing a backup AI in some form.  Two GI 275s offer a TON more functionality, with added cost.  

What autopilot do you have and/or plan to install?  I'd probably include a spot in the panel for the Garmin GFC500 whenever the approval comes.  The Trutrak and similar options are very appealing for the budget but appear likely to stay in vaporware land for the C model for sometime longer.

It's tempting to just do the Dynon system, but that also comes with the issue of having to wait for the autopilot.  

If he's going to plan for a GFC500 then he should put in the G5's, he would need one to drive the GFC500 anyway.

[Brian E.]

5 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

For the amount of work involved are you sure you want G5’s?  If you are thinking about going to glass now is the time to do it. 
 

a basic Dynon package runs about 16k  I believe. By the time you’re done getting everything put together and re plumbed you’re not going to be too far off already. 

That's a good thought.  A basic Garmin package is not far from Dynon costs.  Regardless, bite the bullet once and get more capability and ease of use.  And you only have to apologize once to your significant other!

[Capt Brad]

Thanks! Great help! I was under the impression that the EDM830 (which I've had for over a year) was primary. I'd put in a 900, but an extra $5-6k is over my budget for now, so the manifold/fuel pressure/tach will have to stay.  

The GFC500 was looked at, and might be installed later, but for now the S-Tek30 is working well and will have to suffice. 

My G5's and EDM830 will be flush mounted. I'm also having a Garmin GMA 345 audio panel put in.

It's so easy to pour lots and lots of money into the panel. LOL  And as soon as you've installed it, it's outdated!  I would've considered the GI 275s had I not already installed the G5's

But it's going to look better than the Frankenpanel I had.

Thanks again!

 

[DXB]

5 hours ago, Skates97 said:

If he's going to plan for a GFC500 then he should put in the G5's, he would need one to drive the GFC500 anyway.

Good point.. or a GI 275, which could be used to back up the aspen and pull the vac...

[carusoam]

Somebody may be looking for Stec parts...   find Amelia...

-a-

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Capt Brad said:

Thanks! Great help! I was under the impression that the EDM830 (which I've had for over a year) was primary. I'd put in a 900, but an extra $5-6k is over my budget for now, so the manifold/fuel pressure/tach will have to stay.  

The GFC500 was looked at, and might be installed later, but for now the S-Tek30 is working well and will have to suffice. 

My G5's and EDM830 will be flush mounted. I'm also having a Garmin GMA 345 audio panel put in.

It's so easy to pour lots and lots of money into the panel. LOL  And as soon as you've installed it, it's outdated!  I would've considered the GI 275s had I not already installed the G5's

But it's going to look better than the Frankenpanel I had.

Thanks again!

 

You may want to consider moving the ignition tomthe bottom of the panel. My Mooney has three keys (ignition, door and baggage are all different), plus the hangar key and a tag all on the keychain. Mooney conveniently put my ignition at the bottom of the panel so nothing gets blocked or beat up by swinging keys . . . .

Edited December 10, 2020 by Hank

[mikejr718]

I was advised to replace the entire panel in my C, was told old radio stack mounting would not support the weight and bulk of new stuff

[chriscalandro]

9 hours ago, mikejr718 said:

I was advised to replace the entire panel in my C, was told old radio stack mounting would not support the weight and bulk of new stuff

Huh?  Old stuff generally weighs more than new stuff.

[carusoam]

I Sense some digital humor, Chris...  

Fire something back like...

I can’t believe they tossed out the Uber valuable Naugahydes that were covering the panel..!

Or...

With all those color screens... is there a real Naugahyde screen saver for those?

 

That looks like a reallly modern M20C!

Best regards,

-a-

[Capt Brad]

Well, I worked out a deal with the avionics guy! He'll take the EDM830 in trade and install the EDM900! It's a few more $$$, but you guys are right, it'll be worth it.

[Nukemzzz]

What's this do? My 66' has a push pull cable with no fancy buttons.  Is that abort or intercom silence mode or something?

New panel looks great by the way!

[Tahir K]

On 12/11/2020 at 1:28 PM, Capt Brad said:

Well, I worked out a deal with the avionics guy! He'll take the EDM830 in trade and install the EDM900! It's a few more $$$, but you guys are right, it'll be worth it.

Can I ask how much he charged for that swap? Currently have an 830 (paid for by the previous owner) and am looking to swap for the 900 as well. Couldn't find anyone that had a price estimate for me.

[67 m20F chump]

Here is what I’m doing.

[Pasturepilot]

39 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

Here is what I’m doing.

39 minutes and not a single “because I was inverted” comment?

[David Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

What's this do? My 66' has a push pull cable with no fancy buttons.  Is that abort or intercom silence mode or something?

New panel looks great by the way!

Guns.

 

Landing light.  One of the annunciator lights on the glareshield edge is landing light.  When I bought my plane (1 serial number older) the landing light circuit breaker was pulled. I think the broker could not figure how to turn off the light.

[0TreeLemur]

21 minutes ago, Pasturepilot said:

39 minutes and not a single “because I was inverted” comment?

You beat met to it. 

[carusoam]

Click on mav’s inverted pic...

It is self righting... 

-a-