Cursed Dual Mag?

[Chris B]

On the topic of Electroair's dual mag replacement, I got this email from Smooth Power LLC yesterday when I asked how the dual mag replacement is going:

"We will start selling the four cylinder systems at Sun'n Fun. The six cylinder system should be mid summer."

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Chris B said:

On the topic of Electroair's dual mag replacement, I got this email from Smooth Power LLC yesterday when I asked how the dual mag replacement is going:

"We will start selling the four cylinder systems at Sun'n Fun. The six cylinder system should be mid summer."

Did they say what year at Sun n Fun?

[Chris B]

Yes, they are talking about the Sun n Fun in a couple of weeks

[carusoam]

Great business insight GB!

There are a couple of young bucks and a few old bucks around here that enjoy that type of insight...  

Best regards,

-a-

[mkrakoff]

On 4/1/2021 at 9:29 PM, Chris B said:

On the topic of Electroair's dual mag replacement, I got this email from Smooth Power LLC yesterday when I asked how the dual mag replacement is going:

"We will start selling the four cylinder systems at Sun'n Fun. The six cylinder system should be mid summer."

Any news on this with the opening of SunNFun?

[Ragsf15e]

I’m still wondering if they meant this year... 

[EricJ]

FWIW, I just recently sent my D4LN-3000 dual mag off to Kelly Aerospace for 500-hour inspection.   The inspection itself was $650, if I remember correctly, plus whatever they change beyond the normal points, condensers, bearings, etc, as part of the inspection.   I did confirm that they send you new condensers regardless, so that is apparently included.   In my case I couldn't get the harness grommets to release from the distributor blocks to remove the case top and they were pulling the shields up into accordion shapes.   So I sent the whole thing, magneto and harness assembly, to Kelly to let them sort it out.   I think this was yet another gift from the AI that spent the four-month annual on my airplane just before I bought it, as he had sent the mag out for rebuild even though it only had forty hours on it at the time.   I suspect he didn't put any release agent on it when reassembling.

I wound up with pretty much everything replaced; new coils, new block, new gears, and complete new harness assembly (mine were "trashed"), in addition to the bearing, point, and condenser changes that came with the inspection.   Total bill was $2262 + shipping, which included a $100 core charge on the harness as I kept the old one for a reason that has not yet been determined.    $600 of that total was the new harness and core charge.   

It seems to run a bit smoother than it did before, but is otherwise back to being its usual self.   Turnaround was about a week, and communication and service was good.   The mag is refinished/repainted with a new dataplate, same S/N.   I've only put a few hours on it since reinstalling, but right now I can say I'm pretty happy with the results and the price seemed fine to me considering what I got.

Just wanted to pass it along since there's been some anxiety about getting overhauls/rebuilds done on the dual mags since Bendix dropped the product line and some of the rebuilders have stopped doing them.

[PT20J]

Mooney used a lot of oddball parts that are no longer available over the years. I would be much more worried about maintaining some of those and the old avionics -- especially autopilots -- than a dual mag.

Skip

 

[Tim Jodice]

2 hours ago, mkrakoff said:

Any news on this with the opening of SunNFun?

It is there STC and all. it is two complete electronic ignition systems.

[toto]

Just now, Tim Jodice said:

It is there STC and all. it is two complete electronic ignition systems.

What?  Two complete electronic ignition systems to replace a D3000?

[Tim Jodice]

Just now, toto said:

What?  Two complete electronic ignition systems to replace a D3000?

correct. one crank sensor goes where the mag was and a second one with  is added behind the starter ring gear.

[mkrakoff]

2 minutes ago, Tim Jodice said:

It is there STC and all. it is two complete electronic ignition systems.

Are you down there? Can you confirm it's all approved? Any idea of details? If it's 2 systems I'm curious about weight etc.

Thanks

[Tim Jodice]

2 minutes ago, mkrakoff said:

Are you down there? Can you confirm it's all approved? Any idea of details? If it's 2 systems I'm curious about weight etc.

Thanks

I am. It is approved. they have them in-stock ready to go. I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them.

[mkrakoff]

Just now, Tim Jodice said:

I am. I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them.

Great to hear there is a real forward looking solution.

[Tim Jodice]

I forgot to ask how heavy it is but picking it up it seems it is about the same as a dual mag. the sensors are light the ECUs are light the only thing that is heavy are the coils.

He (Darrell) said a dual mag on a good day makes 16,000 volts and their system makes 64,000 volts on a bad day. 

the airplane must have either two alternators  and/or two batteries. If you go the battery route the additional battery is only connected to one of the ignition systems. Starting with a fully charged 35 series battery it would run the ignition for a minimum of 12 hours. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

16 minutes ago, Tim Jodice said:

I forgot to ask how heavy it is but picking it up it seems it is about the same as a dual mag. the sensors are light the ECUs are light the only thing that is heavy are the coils.

He (Darrell) said a dual mag on a good day makes 16,000 volts and their system makes 64,000 volts on a bad day. 

the airplane must have either two alternators  and/or two batteries. If you go the battery route the additional battery is only connected to one of the ignition systems. Starting with a fully charged 35 series battery it would run the ignition for a minimum of 12 hours. 

 

I thought these were the ones that self generate like a traditional mag?  What are they using the batteries and alternators for?

[Tim Jodice]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

I thought these were the ones that self generate like a traditional mag?  What are they using the batteries and alternators for?

They do not make their own power hence the need for redundancy. 

[PT20J]

Kind of sounds like a kludge. What’s it cost and how many hours does it take to install it?

[mkrakoff]

3 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I thought these were the ones that self generate like a traditional mag?  What are they using the batteries and alternators for?

Yeah. It seems they pick up the timing in 2 different spots but are powered off the alternator. So as a backup you need another alternator or battery backup. Not ideal from a weight standpoint. I am removing a standby vac soon so I guess it’s something to consider when it’s time to overhaul the Mag. 

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Kind of sounds like a kludge. What’s it cost and how many hours does it take to install it?

It appears to me that the "electronic" ignition systems sold for GA airplanes these days are roughly equivalent to what was being put in automobile engines in the late 1980s.   They're very basic and not very smart, which is kind of a necessity since most certified GA engines don't have the same sensors that started making automotive systems get really good starting about the 1990s.

 

[A64Pilot]

39 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It appears to me that the "electronic" ignition systems sold for GA airplanes these days are roughly equivalent to what was being put in automobile engines in the late 1980s.   They're very basic and not very smart, which is kind of a necessity since most certified GA engines don't have the same sensors that started making automotive systems get really good starting about the 1990s.

 

Modern automobiles are in essence FADEC, and have significant software in the systems, and engine control software is very hard to get Certified.
I would be interested to know what Cirrus went through with the Vision jet, if I hadn’t read it, I would have told you what they have done wasn’t possible.

But aircraft engines won’t really respond or need nearly as much timing variation an automobile does as we operate in a narrow RPM band and load, where a car operates in a very wide RPM and load range.

‘Plus play much with timing and you can set up resonance frequencies that can wreck props, don’t believe me, call Hartzell Propellor.

‘Having said all of that, I would gladly swap my (D) mag for electronic ignition, real hot ignition among other things out to allow for wide electrode gaps, and that with the proper plug type will make things like starting much better, to say nothing of making lean mixtures initiate burn more reliably

‘If it were self generating, wouldn’t that make it a electronic magneto?

I wonder how big that second battery has to be and how is it wired, can it be simply connected to the first via a diode bank?

 

On edit, probably are going to hear it’s $10,000 or something, which for me makes it unobtanium 

Edited April 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Tim Jodice]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Modern automobiles are in essence FADEC, and have significant software in the systems, and engine control software is very hard to get Certified.
I would be interested to know what Cirrus went through with the Vision jet, if I hadn’t read it, I would have told you what they have done wasn’t possible.

But aircraft engines won’t really respond or need nearly as much timing variation an automobile does as we operate in a narrow RPM band and load, where a car operates in a very wide RPM and load range.

‘Plus play much with timing and you can set up resonance frequencies that can wreck props, don’t believe me, call Hartzell Propellor.

‘Having said all of that, I would gladly swap my (D) mag for electronic ignition, real hot ignition among other things out to allow for wide electrode gaps, and that with the proper plug type will make things like starting much better, to say nothing of making lean mixtures initiate burn more reliably

‘If it were self generating, wouldn’t that make it a electronic magneto?

I wonder how big that second battery has to be and how is it wired, can it be simply connected to the first via a diode bank?

 

On edit, probably are going to hear it’s $10,000 or something, which for me makes it unobtanium 

I agree with everything you said. 

Your are correct on the spark plug gap, it is about triple avation standards at .060.

I will ask about the battery size tomorrow 

The cost is $4900.

[Ragsf15e]

Ahh, I thought these were the long promised EMags which are available for the experimental folks.  They self generate similar to a magneto, but have much newer electronic ignition technology.  Since they self generate, you can replace both mags (experimental). They have supposedly been working on certified approval for a long time.  But yeah, sorry, this is different.