Dynon Certified Marketing Survey

[NotarPilot]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

 

Something about Mooneys (maybe it’s their efficiency) but only on this board do I see such pride on being cheap (and the label CB being a badge of honor). If I had a business this would not be the place I’d look to sell/introduce a rather expensive product.
Beechtalk is where I would go.

 

I disagree. Whilst there are some CBs on here, I also see a lot of guys who take absolute pride in there airplanes and have beautiful examples out there. I definitely take pride in mine and it has been a work in progress getting it to where I want it to be. This year I have new paint, windows, tank reseals and a new panel all planned.

[philiplane]

For all those yelling at a vendor about FAA certification delays, I encourage you to try getting a new autopilot approved yourself. Or get anything approved at all, through a byzantine bureaucracy that still gets paychecks no matter what it does to the people it serves.

Then, you'll be grateful than anyone even wants to develop a new autopilot for a 30-50 year old plane, where there are fewer planes and customers everyday. In fact, you'll question the sanity of attempting such a feat. 

[ArtVandelay]

I disagree. Whilst there are some CBs on here, I also see a lot of guys who take absolute pride in there airplanes and have beautiful examples out there. I definitely take pride in mine and it has been a work in progress getting it to where I want it to be. This year I have new paint, windows, tank reseals and a new panel all planned.

Of the 10 Js on controller, 2 have glass panels, 1 other has a GTN, a couple have GNS units, several still have original avionics...about 40 years old and never updated! The 2 with G500s are $239K and $140K BTW.
Yes, you’ll see a lot, but it’s still the small minority. Especially with vintage Mooneys, of course they don’t want to spend a lot of money on a plane that’s not worth that much, so I understand. But nonetheless, how do you convince Dynon that enough vintage owners will spend $...you’re idea for deposits maybe worth considering.

[201Steve]

I think the sharp criticism is warranted. These MFG’s are in the government fighting business. “Don’t yell at them, it’s tough working with the FAA, you don’t understand”. This is the line of work they chose. Unfortunately, you don’t beat the giant with soft spoken words of encouragement. Up and comers have to operate with violent tenacity and undeterred will. My favorite example of this, Elon Musk coming into the car business and the rocket business at the same time. A real David vs Goliath entrance. (This is my attempt at words of inspirational encoureagement for those fighting the good fight)
 

Alas, the path of lesser resistance is likely the one which prevails in this endeavor. Hopefully everyone will have waisted their time in legacy certification, and MOSAIC will come along and make it all in vain with experimental-like rules. Or at least one can dream. 
 

 

[MIm20c]

41 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Of the 10 Js on controller, 2 have glass panels, 1 other has a GTN, a couple have GNS units, several still have original avionics...about 40 years old and never updated! The 2 with G500s are $239K and $140K BTW.
Yes, you’ll see a lot, but it’s still the small minority. Especially with vintage Mooneys, of course they don’t want to spend a lot of money on a plane that’s not worth that much, so I understand. But nonetheless, how do you convince Dynon that enough vintage owners will spend $...you’re idea for deposits maybe worth considering.

IMO there is a huge market for AP’s in vintage aircraft. However, this normally does not include full panel makeovers. I wished Dynon could design/certify the the unit to work on its own with an external/internal AHRS system. 

[ZuluZulu]

6 hours ago, philiplane said:

For all those yelling at a vendor about FAA certification delays, I encourage you to try getting a new autopilot approved yourself. Or get anything approved at all, through a byzantine bureaucracy that still gets paychecks no matter what it does to the people it serves.

Then, you'll be grateful than anyone even wants to develop a new autopilot for a 30-50 year old plane, where there are fewer planes and customers everyday. In fact, you'll question the sanity of attempting such a feat. 

I don’t dispute that dealing with the FAA is probably a big pain in the ass.  For the record I was not “yelling” about certification delays.  I was “yelling” because blaming events that occurred two to three years ago for subsequent failures to keep promises made after those events makes no sense, and I thought those of you invested in the Dynon system deserved better.

[NotarPilot]

11 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

I don’t dispute that dealing with the FAA is probably a big pain in the ass.  For the record I was not “yelling” about certification delays.  I was “yelling” because blaming events that occurred two to three years ago for subsequent failures to keep promises made after those events makes no sense, and I thought those of you invested in the Dynon system deserved better.

You don’t think that events of 2 or 3 years ago still don’t linger in the FAA’s mind? I can totally see how those events affect the current certification process. Hell, if the MAX issues never happened perhaps they would be working on the AP for the M22 by now.

[ArtVandelay]

IMO there is a huge market for AP’s in vintage aircraft. However, this normally does not include full panel makeovers. I wished Dynon could design/certify the the unit to work on its own with an external/internal AHRS system. 

Like the Trio? Another lost in the certification process.

[NotarPilot]

22 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Of the 10 Js on controller, 2 have glass panels, 1 other has a GTN, a couple have GNS units, several still have original avionics...about 40 years old and never updated! The 2 with G500s are $239K and $140K BTW.
Yes, you’ll see a lot, but it’s still the small minority. Especially with vintage Mooneys, of course they don’t want to spend a lot of money on a plane that’s not worth that much, so I understand. But nonetheless, how do you convince Dynon that enough vintage owners will spend $...you’re idea for deposits maybe worth considering.

By the way, I wanted to add that gauging the glass panel market by how many you see on Controller is a poor way to gauge how many are our there. Typically guys who invest glass panels with fully coupled autopilots, engine monitors, etc do so because they plan to keep the plane forever. That’s why these really nice planes rarely come up. I know guys like Maurader and Don Kaye have very nicely equipped planes that will probably never appear on Controller. 
 

Unfortunately there is no centralized database (That I’m aware of) that keeps track of which glass units like the Skyview, G500, G3X, or Aspen end up in which airframes. That would be good information to know for marketing purposes. 
 

Also, as I said before, it would be nice if Dynon let us know how many AP units they would have to sell to short body owners to turn a profit if they went through the trouble of the certification process.

[Hank]

I'm sure there's a substantial number of us who would like to add or replace an autopilot without having to replace the entire panel to make the AP work . . . . I'm just not a fan of the TV screen approach, maybe because I've had a total electrical failure just after breaking out on approach and I realize how short that 30-minute battery backup will be.

[Lionudakis]

I'm one of the many in hope of an autopilot. I'm currently in the works of installing the full dual screen Dynon system with all the add ons. Take away the autopilot, the HDX system for me is a huge upgrade in function and information. I didn't want Garmin for personal reasons, and they cut my year (62C) off for an autopilot which solidified that option anyways. I have more into my plane than I can get probably get for it, but its my hobby/toy/hotrod. The fact that an owner can play a huge part in an install lowering cost over Big G makes it more attainable. 

 

I still want an autopilot, and would put a deposit down to show seriousness. I have no other choices, and might as well stand behind my only option 

[chriscalandro]

On 3/6/2021 at 9:00 AM, NotarPilot said:

Do you mean a field approval for the autopilot? I’ve never heard of a “one time STC” 

No. A field approval cannot be granted for an autopilot. Autopilot can only be approved via STC, and if one does not exist, a Single Use or one time STC may be granted to a single serial number. 

[ZuluZulu]

20 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

You don’t think that events of 2 or 3 years ago still don’t linger in the FAA’s mind? I can totally see how those events affect the current certification process. Hell, if the MAX issues never happened perhaps they would be working on the AP for the M22 by now.

The exact same regulatory environment doesn't seem to have slowed Garmin down, nor do I see any of their reps coming onto this board to blame the FAA for missing their own guidance.  BWTHDIK?

[NotarPilot]

5 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

The exact same regulatory environment doesn't seem to have slowed Garmin down, nor do I see any of their reps coming onto this board to blame the FAA for missing their own guidance.  BWTHDIK?

I’m assuming (and yes, I know what happens when I assume) that Garmin has much deeper pockets to push through multiple airframes through the certification process at once than Dynon can. Might have something to do with why their AP prices are so much higher than Dynon’s too. BWTHDIK?

[ArtVandelay]

I’m assuming (and yes, I know what happens when I assume) that Garmin has much deeper pockets to push through multiple airframes through the certification process at once than Dynon can. Might have something to do with why their AP prices are so much higher than Dynon’s too. BWTHDIK?

I thought they had their own in house FAA inspector, like Boeing.

[ArtVandelay]

By the way, I wanted to add that gauging the glass panel market by how many you see on Controller is a poor way to gauge how many are our there. Typically guys who invest glass panels with fully coupled autopilots, engine monitors, etc do so because they plan to keep the plane forever. That’s why these really nice planes rarely come up. I know guys like Maurader and Don Kaye have very nicely equipped planes that will probably never appear on Controller. 
 
Unfortunately there is no centralized database (That I’m aware of) that keeps track of which glass units like the Skyview, G500, G3X, or Aspen end up in which airframes. That would be good information to know for marketing purposes. 
 
Also, as I said before, it would be nice if Dynon let us know how many AP units they would have to sell to short body owners to turn a profit if they went through the trouble of the certification process.

Yes but the fact that half the Js haven’t been updated is telling.
I be willing to bet a cold beverage that a random sampling of brand B vs M, the Bs will have more updated panels.

[ZuluZulu]

12 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

I’m assuming (and yes, I know what happens when I assume) that Garmin has much deeper pockets to push through multiple airframes through the certification process at once than Dynon can. Might have something to do with why their AP prices are so much higher than Dynon’s too. BWTHDIK?

In the sense that Garmin has something to sell and Dynon does not, I guess this is correct?  $7195 is indeed higher than $0.

[Don Heene]

I'm one of those people sitting on the side lines waiting to see what happens.  I have a '68 M 20 C with an Aspen 1000 pro and 2 Garmin 430's.  I would like to install Dynon 2 10" screens (like pilot 101 has)  I also have more money in the plane than it's worth the plus side is I know everything that's done on the plane.  It's my hobby and plane for life.  

I'm sure there are crazy people out there just like me putting more money into the plane than it's worth.  When the auto pilot comes out many more Mooney drivers will pony up the money for this just like me.  

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, Don Heene said:

 

I'm sure there are crazy people out there just like me putting more money into the plane than it's worth.  When the auto pilot comes out many more Mooney drivers will pony up the money for this just like me.  

There are enough people around here that have defined their particular plane.... as a forever-plane...

forever-planes operate by a different set of financial rules....

The goofy part of the oft heard comment... my plane isn’t worth enough to install this or that...

When somebody says that... they are either mis-informed... or just don’t have any money...

Around Y2K this was a common statement used when GPS was just coming available...

It was sad to be an M20C owner... because it wasn’t worth it to install a GPS....

Its not the value of the plane that counts... it is the value of the people inside...

The next buyer will also have expensive people riding in it...

 

So... if you need to defend your honor... and why your instrument panel cost 2X of what your plane costs... that’s because you value the lives of the people inside your plane...   

 

Some instrument panels have been sold around here... one of them sold for something like 150amus.... it came with a free M20E attached to it... 

 

The cool thing about forever planes... somebody else has to sell it for you...

If you are a nice person... you probably leave instructions on what to do with everything...  tail number, and Jimmy’s phone number... done deal...

PP darkish thoughts only... nothing serious...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

so for those saying can you hook the Dynon up to this or that A/P.   Realize the Dynon A/P software is already in the system (and also the D10A).   Really all it needs is the Servos hooked up and calibrated.   With a reading of the Dynon STC it would seem that the A/P is already applied to the Mooney.    What is missing is the data to install the Servos. The data to configure the Servos is already in the installation manual as supplied.   My friend that went for his own Dynon STC in the Baron had to get a DER involved just to put a new hole in an aluminum mounting bracket about an inch away from the prior mounting hole.  So would another FSDO be willing to accept installation data that updates a STC Owned by someone else that has been issued by the ACO Branch.   The Flight Manual Supplement is already covered too.

[NotarPilot]

On 3/2/2021 at 9:16 PM, chriscalandro said:

@Rick Ludtke  You got some explaining to do.

If the C is not to be included as promised, and not this year, I know of at least one dual screen system that's getting sent back to Dynon.  I've been a pretty significant advocate of this system in the older Mooneys and this is a pretty big kick in the ass.

 

Explain.

Looks like they changed the expectations for the certification of the AP for the Mooney. Not sure if this makes you feel any better but it’s a start.

[chriscalandro]

2 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

Looks like they changed the expectations for the certification of the AP for the Mooney. Not sure if this makes you feel any better but it’s a start.

I have quite a few contacts at Dynon and we have spoken at length about this and their poor choice of wording.  At the end of the day Garmin did it, so hopefully Dynon can too.

[LANCECASPER]

On 3/10/2021 at 5:17 PM, NotarPilot said:

Looks like they changed the expectations for the certification of the AP for the Mooney. Not sure if this makes you feel any better but it’s a start.

The TN or the V Mooneys aren't going to use a Dynon autopilot. All of them have the Garmin GFC 700. Just L, M, R, and S.

[carusoam]

@Rick Ludtke

Any updates on the DFC90 coming to Mooneys?

A few people around here planning their panel updates… and the Dynon AP is an important part of their discussion…

Best regards,

-a-

[bmcconnaha]

I wish Dynon could have kept the original schedule for the AP.  I decided not to wait any longer, and am installing a g3X/750XI/GFC500.  Sort of a major bummer, because I'm a big believer in the IFD nav units.  I like them quite a bit more than the GTNs.  Too bad both companies(Garmin and Dynon) have limited compatibly.  If dynon could have interfaced with my century or NGT9000 I would have gone that way and just had things prewired for the AP.  

Edited November 5, 2021 by bmcconnaha