Seeking the Sublime: What to upgrade?

[EchoMax]

I am temporarily grounded after hip replacement surgery, but dreaming of the future. Please don’t tell me to fly for a while and then see. That will only drive me crazy!

I had the good fortune to acquire the late @Bob_Belville‘s beautiful 1966 M20E (N943RW) for the asking price of $110,000.

My budget includes 25% ($27,500) for initial annual, repairs, and upgrades. Next annual is due April, 2021. The plan is to do any upgrades at that time.

 

Current equipment:

Auto pilot - STEC 50 w Alt Hld

Stormscope - WX-900

Aspen PFD 1000 SV, AOA, ADS-B

Aspen PFD 1000 to MAX

GPS - GTN 750

FS 510

JPI 930

GDL 88 - ADS-B in & out -traffic, weather

GPS 696

GMA 340

GTX 327

CYA100 AOA

CiES digital fuel level sensors

Surefly Electronic Ignition

 

Before he died, Bob was planning to update the autopilot when it became available.

Any advice? I know how you guys like to spend other people’s money!

[carusoam]

Max,

You know MSers so well!

We are great at spending OPM... but...

It usually takes a good weekend to handle all the fantasy of flight conversations...
 

We kind of missed the weekend....

so... Let’s get started!

There are a couple of modern APs available....

The challenge has been matching them with an STC for your M20E...

Coming over the horizon is a good match for your plane...

That is the offering from Big G...

Be on the lookout for the schedule for availability for your Mooney on Garmin’s website...

Then decide...

How many functions you want it to have... the full system, including yaw damper... is a four(?) Servo installation...

That would be great for your plane...

Stec / genesys was the other player... great hardware, but ridiculous method for getting it to market for Mooneys...

That should give you two great players to start work with...
 

Let us know how the recovery works... MS has a few replacement joints in flight... some surgeries are better than others...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[chriscalandro]

You’re into it well over it’s value. I know it’s a nice airplane but NO E MODEL is worth 6 figures. 
 

however, 

 

with your budget you can certainly put a dual screen Dynon system with integrated adsb in and out, and engine monitor. Then later you would be in a good spot for when the autopilot is approved. 
 

you would have to do the work yourself to be within budget, but it sounds like time isn’t a problem. You just need a willing IA for the paperwork and the supervision. 

[BKlott]

Purchase a Sky-ox portable oxygen system with the pendant cannula. You can enjoy the benefits of oxygen while flying high and easily eat and drink while you’re at it.

[carusoam]

20 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

You’re into it well over it’s value. I know it’s a nice airplane but NO E MODEL is worth 6 figures. 
 

Really..?

It is to some people... 

Why would you tell them it’s not?

Kind of an argument in futility...

There are a few Short Body Mooneys each year that have been loved until their owners couldn’t love them any more... Those M20Es were worth six figures...

Bob’s M20E looked right at home in front of new Ovations and Acclaims...

There was a time, not long ago... people said putting a GPS in a short body was a waste of Money... There are a few Mooneys parading around with full WAAS color screens... clearly those statements about  not being worth it Didn’t make sense then...

Same goofy discussion... pointless as it is... it will resurface endlessly...

Any Mooney kept up to date, with a full set of WAAS avionics... Will cost six figures to get there...

Gently place a nice paint scheme on it... the value climbs from there...

 

The cool thing.... Max’s budget for the first annual... after a history of annuals completed at @AGL Aviation ...

Looks like there will be room with the remainder of that budget to really add value to Gypsy Rose....

She is not an unknown airplane hiding in the dark...  She wasn’t owned by an unknown Mooney pilot...

She is an award winner for her current status... As was Bob... for his endless years of safe flying...  

 

So Chris, I politely state.... this M20E is clearly worth six figures... and she is about to be worth even more...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[chriscalandro]

Just because you know who owned it does not increase the value. 

Not that much.

 

It’s still a 66E and no amount of magical pixie dust is going to change the fact that it’s old enough to have grand children.  
 

if the money does matter then who cares, but if you’re into minimizing losses, you’re already quite far behind and should be left alone.  It’s already capable.

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by chriscalandro

[EchoMax]

49 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

You’re into it well over it’s value. I know it’s a nice airplane but NO E MODEL is worth 6 figures. 

As my dad always said whenever I asked him how much this-or-that was worth, "Whatever somebody wants to pay for it."  

I look at it as a collector's item.  I don't plan to sell it.  It gives me joy!

I only mentioned the purchase price because it is in the public domain, and I thought it might be interesting how I came up with this somewhat arbitrary number.

[chriscalandro]

I only mention it because there are 2 trains of thought.  One you care about the value when it comes time to sell, the other, you don’t. 
 

personally I’m in the second thought process. I know I’ll never get back what I have into my airplane, but I have the airplane I want. 
 

anyway, redo the whole thing and get the Dynon. There’s still some value with what’s in there now to help offset the cost. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by chriscalandro

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, EchoMax said:

I am temporarily grounded after hip replacement surgery, but dreaming of the future. Please don’t tell me to fly for a while and then see. That will only drive me crazy!

I had the good fortune to acquire the late @Bob_Belville‘s beautiful 1966 M20E (N943RW) for the asking price of $110,000.

My budget includes 25% ($27,500) for initial annual, repairs, and upgrades. Next annual is due April, 2021. The plan is to do any upgrades at that time.

 

Current equipment:

Auto pilot - STEC 50 w Alt Hld

Stormscope - WX-900

Aspen PFD 1000 SV, AOA, ADS-B

Aspen PFD 1000 to MAX

GPS - GTN 750

FS 510

JPI 930

GDL 88 - ADS-B in & out -traffic, weather

GPS 696

GMA 340

GTX 327

CYA100 AOA

CiES digital fuel level sensors

Surefly Electronic Ignition

 

Before he died, Bob was planning to update the autopilot when it became available.

Any advice? I know how you guys like to spend other people’s money!

 

I definitely wouldn't start tearing apart the panel. I see very little functionality you're missing but the four things below would all add to what you have. And I know you said not to say it,  but I would fly it awhile and see what features would add to what you already have. Patience is a good thing rather than just tearing it apart because you can. 

1. Do the Aspen Max upgrade and have the audio call-outs run over to the audio panel. Good value now and no panel cutting.

2. When the STEC 3100 becomes available for Mooneys  that would be a good upgrade to the STEC 50.  Aspen is working on a software unlock to the STEC3100. Good value when it becomes available, but since you already have an altitude hold A/P I don't see any rush to rip it out. The STEC 3100 will require a new spot in the panel, but with careful planning might not require major surgery.

3. If money is burning a hole in your pocket, do a slide in PS Engineering 450B audio panel. Another good value now with no labor cost since you can swap it out. Again no panel cutting necessary.

4. As far as the Garmin 696 goes, you might swap that with the new Garmin 760 portable. It will give you software and database updates over wifi and nice interface that is more like your GTN 750.

As long as your WX-900 Stormscope works I would leave it right where it is. It's real time convective activity and is a nice addition to the delayed ADS-B or XM weather. If down the road it fails you can pick up a used one to swap it out or do a remote WX-500 that displays on your GTX750 or Aspen.

Bob was a very intelligent guy and carefully thought this out. Even though he had the means he was smart enough to restrain himself to what would add functionality and value and didn't get caught up in cosmetic panel surgery every year to impress Mooneyspace . . lol.  When re-doing the interior he even sought out the best value by buying hides and having it done rather than just opening up his checkbook. I learned a lot by reading his posts over the years.

 

[ChrisV]

8 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

You’re into it well over it’s value. I know it’s a nice airplane but NO E MODEL is worth 6 figures.

Strongly disagree with this.  If I were in the market when it was available, I would have gladly paid the $110K for it.  I've been in love with that plane since before i got my J.

But I totally agree with this "It’s already capable."

[gsxrpilot]

First of all, just ignore @chriscalandro... he's just envious... like the rest of us. And on this matter of value, he's factually incorrect.

Back to the topic at hand. I largely agree with @LANCECASPER. But I do think there are a few improvements that could be made.

1. Swap the audio panel for the PMA 450B. Quick easy, do it yourself. Also the PMA 8000 has good trade in value. Talk to @Avionics Source about the trade.
2. Swap out the transponder for a remote version that you'll control through the GTN750.
3. In the space left by the transponder and after you remove the KX155, you can replace it with a GTN650 to give you the matched set.
4. And if you're ready for major panel surgery... Add an Aspen MFD MAX and remove the four round dials.
5. And finally, just because Bob and I argued over this one point constantly... Replace the 930 with a 900 that could go on the left side of the panel. To make space, remove the storm scope display and have it display on the GTN750.

But seriously... I'd just fly it the way it is.

 

[GeeBee]

Don't know the power source for that standby attitude, but I think I spy a vacuum gauge over by the marker beacons. If so, put in a Garmin GI-275 and ditch the vacuum system. You'll need to look at your standby electrical capacity, but I think you'll have plenty especially if you add the big battery to the Aspen.

Good luck with your hip surgery!

 

 

[StevenL757]

34 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

I definitely wouldn't start tearing apart the panel. I see very little functionality you're missing but the four things below would all add to what you have. And I know you said not to say it,  but I would fly it awhile and see what features would add to what you already have. Patience is a good thing rather than just tearing it apart because you can. 

1. Do the Aspen Max upgrade and have the audio call-outs run over to the audio panel. Good value now and no panel cutting.

2. When the STEC 3100 becomes available for Mooneys  that would be a good upgrade to the STEC 50.  Aspen is working on a software unlock to the STEC3100. Good value when it becomes available, but since you already have an altitude hold A/P I don't see any rush to rip it out. The STEC 3100 will require a new spot in the panel, but with careful planning might not require major surgery.

3. If money is burning a hole in your pocket, do a slide in PS Engineering 450B audio panel. Another good value now with no labor cost since you can swap it out. Again no panel cutting necessary.

4. As far as the Garmin 696 goes, you might swap that with the new Garmin 760 portable. It will give you software and database updates over wifi and nice interface that is more like your GTN 750.

As long as your WX-900 Stormscope works I would leave it right where it is. It's real time convective activity and is a nice addition to the delayed ADS-B or XM weather. If down the road it fails you can pick up a used one to swap it out or do a remote WX-500 that displays on your GTX750 or Aspen.

Bob was a very intelligent guy and carefully thought this out. Even though he had the means he was smart enough to restrain himself to what would add functionality and value and didn't get caught up in cosmetic panel surgery every year to impress Mooneyspace . . lol.  When re-doing the interior he even sought out the best value by buying hides and having it done rather than just opening up his checkbook. I learned a lot by reading his posts over the years.

 

Yeah, I have to agree here.  There isn't much one can do to this panel that already hasn't been done.

For @EchoMax, if it were mine, I'd simply lose the 696 altogether as well as the StormScope (as Paul said...use the 750 for Wx) and plan for adding a GFC500 autopilot.  You already have top-notch equipment in there.  Keep it simple.

Steve

Edited September 28, 2020 by StevenL757
Added the "remove StormScope" piece

[StevenL757]

7 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

anyway, redo the whole thing and get the Dynon. There’s still some value with what’s in there now to help offset the cost. 

Seriously?

Many on here know I'm a pretty big Garmin fan - given my own panel choices - but taking out that Aspen and/or removing that 750 for anything-Dynon is a major step backwards.

[DXB]

Dump the vac and its AI.  Get a GI 275 as backup AI.  It can also provide a second nav head, HSI, and bunch of other stuff.  You can get rid of the old nav indicator on the bottom left.  Save the rest of your money for a GFC500 autopilot for when it's available, or another low cost modern autopilot option like TruTrak.  Or spend it all now on an STEC 3100 upgrade.

[mike_elliott]

15 minutes ago, DXB said:

Or spend it all now on an STEC 3100 upgrade.

you cant. Bob and others tried. They gave FIRM PO's to Genesys and nothing was done about this commitment on Genesys part, a bad sign from a company if you expect long term relationships. It is ripe for a Garmin AP when that 25K isnt spent on the annual. 

 

[ArtVandelay]

anyway, redo the whole thing and get the Dynon. There’s still some value with what’s in there now to help offset the cost. 

And how is Dynon’s certified autopilot working out?

[chriscalandro]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

And how is Dynon’s certified autopilot working out?

Better than any of the others. That’s 100% for sure. The STEC will probably never exist, and have you seen the Garmin installation?  It’s pure garbage. 
 

Dynon is an open company and won’t promise anything they don’t believe to be 100% accurate. I believe if it weren’t for Boeing and COVID it would have made its deadline  

 

Some of you are just as bad as Tesla people. 
 

I wouldn’t trust that Aspen for anything that requires it to keep you alive. 
 

I’m not envious of anything. I have a plan for exactly what I want. At the same time, I don’t live on some fantasy island where the value of a 60s airplane skyrockets like a magical fountain of youth. 
 

Especially when it’s manufacturer hasn’t demonstrated any kind of corporate or financial stability in decades. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by chriscalandro

[Greg Ellis]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

Better than any of the others. That’s 100% for sure. The STEC will probably never exist, and have you seen the Garmin installation?  It’s pure garbage. 
 

 

I don't have a dog in this fight.  But I am curious, as someone who has been thinking about a GFC 500 for a long time now (now probably delayed even further according to Garmin's website), what do you mean by the Garmin installation is pure garbage?  I assume you were talking about the GFC 500?  I am just wondering what you mean by this with examples of what you have seen as to the installation.  I am sure there are folks on this forum that would disagree with this statement (those that have the GFC 500 in their airplane) so I am curious as to what you have seen.  I am inquiring only for my own benefit as a possible purchase in the future and not to try to pick a fight.

[chriscalandro]

30 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

I don't have a dog in this fight.  But I am curious, as someone who has been thinking about a GFC 500 for a long time now (now probably delayed even further according to Garmin's website), what do you mean by the Garmin installation is pure garbage?  I assume you were talking about the GFC 500?  I am just wondering what you mean by this with examples of what you have seen as to the installation.  I am sure there are folks on this forum that would disagree with this statement (those that have the GFC 500 in their airplane) so I am curious as to what you have seen.  I am inquiring only for my own benefit as a possible purchase in the future and not to try to pick a fight.

The servo installation is best described as “a contraption “ and uses a series of belts and pullys vs arms and control rods. 
 

 

Yikes. 
 

also, the addition of AP for my Dynon is estimated at under 5k. 
 

so again how’s it working out?  Compared to the other options, excellent. Pretty sure I backed the right horse on this one. 
 

Edited September 28, 2020 by chriscalandro

[EricJ]

How long are you going to be down for the surgery?    My input would be to keep flying it, once you're back in the saddle, and see what functions you wish were better.   I don't see any value in spending money on stuff that doesn't need it or provide some sort of benefit, but that's just me.    Putting more hours on it will give you more time to evaluate where improvements might best be made for how you use the airplane.

If you want improved access to your phone while your headset is on for music/calls/whatever and a really remarkable intercom, I'd +1 that a simple swap-out to a PMA450B might be nice.

I'm also +1 that the GFC500 installation in a Mooney is a bit of a cluster compared to what it could be.   I cancelled a GFC500 I had on order once I saw an installation and am waiting for TT or Dynon or whoever to come out with something with a cleaner installation.  The S-Tec that you already have is a really good a/p, so unless it doesn't do something that you really need or want, I wouldn't bother with it.

 

[Bravoman]

14 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

You’re into it well over it’s value. I know it’s a nice airplane but NO E MODEL is worth 6 figures. 
 

however, 

 

with your budget you can certainly put a dual screen Dynon system with integrated adsb in and out, and engine monitor. Then later you would be in a good spot for when the autopilot is approved. 
 

you would have to do the work yourself to be within budget, but it sounds like time isn’t a problem. You just need a willing IA for the paperwork and the supervision. 

 I would respectfully submit that if six figures is what was paid for it in an arms length transaction that is the economic definition of market value. 

[Rusty Pilot]

13 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

Just because you know who owned it does not increase the value. 

Not that much.

 

It’s still a 66E and no amount of magical pixie dust is going to change the fact that it’s old enough to have grand children.  
 

if the money does matter then who cares, but if you’re into minimizing losses, you’re already quite far behind and should be left alone.  It’s already capable.

 

I  am seeing high time 1970's 172's for up to $150K and they are selling.  I don't know why as a group Mooney Spacer's argue the value down of our aircraft.  For the money their is no better value out there than a used Mooney.  I don't understand the difference in price from a 172 to a Mooney C or E.  Before everyone responds I get supply and demand and that it is even worse for Cessna 310's.  Here is a picture of my C.

 

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, Rusty Pilot said:

I  am seeing high time 1970's 172's for up to $150K and they are selling.  I don't know why as a group Mooney Spacer's argue the value down of our aircraft.  For the money their is no better value out there than a used Mooney.  I don't understand the difference in price from a 172 to a Mooney C or E.  Before everyone responds I get supply and demand and that it is even worse for Cessna 310's.  Here is a picture of my C.

 

[carusoam]

RP,

responding to your thoughtful input...  (I don't know why as a group Mooney Spacer's argue the value down of our aircraft.  For the money their is no better value out there than a used Mooney.)

There isn’t a group of MSers involved in this case...  it is one person.

Chris likes to take the other side...

The other side of any argument possible...

The Dynon AP doesn’t exist in the Mooney world yet...

How can that be better than anything else?

At best, It can be equal to other APs we can’t install...

Lets not get dragged into the swamp...

We have a valid discussion going on regarding what IS possible for Max’s upgrades...
 

As for Garmin building a contraption of belts and pulleys... really?

Garmin has various autopilots and servos, installed in various Mooneys, and is expanding down the Mooney ladder... as we speak... 

Chris you are welcome to back any horse you desire... but why make a mess out of an informative conversation..?

 

Best regards,

-a-