Touch and Go's not recommended? Why?

[EarthboundMisfit]

I've read in a few threads opinion recommending against performing touch and go's in a Mooney.  I'm a curious as to why this suggestion is made?  If you're in the "no touch and go" camp, can you share your thoughts? 

[Ibra]

43 minutes ago, EarthboundMisfit said:

If you're in the "no touch and go" camp, can you share your thoughts? 

Depends how long the runway is no? the right size is about what you need for full stop and fresh takeoff 

My school has 1800ft hard tarmac: T&G in DA40 is piece of cake, T&G in Mooney is doable, T&G in DA42 is hectic 
Definitely for complex one need to touch on first 1/2 of the runway and zero tolerance to config errors 

In complex, unless pilot/student can land in short distance on the numbers & the centreline, it will be a waste of time and increase config risks

Note that when one does backtrack runway/taxiway, they can still take the time to get the picture of how the aircraft sits on the ground to guess the landing pitch attitude and appreciate the symmetry of the canopy to keep wings level, I find doing 1h of taxi backtrack & 1h slow flight at height while looking ahead helps more with landings than the quick 6seconds flare on 20*T&Gs  

[tmo]

I didn't know I'm not supposed to do T'n'G's so I did them when I did my initial 10h with a FI. Lots of fast trimming down / pushing on the yoke involved. For me, key was to add power in a controlled way, not go to 40" ASAP, and to have the FI do the flaps from full to take-off while still on the ground. Too few hands.

Now I prepare for a fullstop, and if everything works out perfectly, as in, I nail the approach, flare and touchdown by midfield, I just call it a "go around". I agree with @Ibra it is much easier on a longer runway - I can usually do a safe T'n'G on the 3600 ft of grass, but when we shorten it to 2600 ft it was a challenge at times.

I also find it easier to do a T'n'G when alone, for whatever reason. Pretty sure it's not the 200 extra lbs in the right seat.

[aviatoreb]

Its my opinion that TnGo in a retract generally makes for an especially easy way to handle the gear lever wrong just once, retract at the wrong time or forget to deploy, and gear up.  If I have the urge to touch and go, rather I touch, stop, reposition to the hold short, then go.

[Jerry 5TJ]

On my home base the runway is 7,000’ long so I have done stop and go landings with Mooney transition students.  The full stop landing is a completely normal procedure.  

We spend a few seconds while stopped on the runway to check and reconfigure the airplane and our brains and begin a normal takeoff with 4,000’ or more remaining.  

An argument against T&G is to ask “why practice something you don’t ever do as a normal or emergency operation?”  

Practice go-arounds from just above the runway, when the hypothetical moose wanders onto the pavement, those make sense.  Low/missed approaches for IFR practice likewise are realistic.  

I feel T&Gs in a complex aircraft are an invitation to a higher risk of a loss of control and a runway excursion that rarely ends well for the sheet metal.  So I chose not to do them.  

[Nick Pilotte]

Because this....

https://youtu.be/vyC-2RDSXD0

As others have said, T&G in a complex aircraft increases odds of missing an item or attempting a takeoff with incorrect configuration (flaps or trim not set).  Combine that with rapid full throttle inputs and you can really have a bad day.  

[steingar]

Try and take off with landing trim and flaps and you're going for a ride.  Not for the feint of heart.

[Hank]

Can't count the number of TnGs I did with CFII during Instrument training, many also done at night (winter training after work in WV). My preference is for 5000' runways, so I can land, raise flaps, spin trim wheel then push throttle forward. Rarely slowed much below 50 mph. With a mile of pavement, there is no rush. 

Can a TnG be done on a shorter runway? Sure, read above. But it's outside my comfort zone. I was based at a 3000' obstructed field, so shortness isn't an issue other than TnG, which takes more runway due to absence of braking.

Every takeoff is the same process. Every landing is also the same process, with 3 GUMP checks, some just don't involve brakes. The "additional risk" comes from rushing to do a TnG on a shorter runway. So if you feel rushed, don't do it, go somewhere else that is longer.

[Ibra]

In the M20J, I found electric flaps don't allow a quick switch between full landing flaps and 1/2 takeoff flaps when doing short performance landing and takeoff?  for sure on short runways, I think it is far more productive to try T&G alone without two people fiddling with the controls, short runways do not allow "proper CRM" and puts more emphasis on "human factors"

This example is a recent one this year Mar2020 at my home-base, the runway is 3000ft long with 1800ft asphalt and 1200ft wet soft grass (any ground roll between the two surfaces above 10kts or bellow 60kts ground speeds qualifies to be called Mooney prop strike ), AFAIK, it's not the first T&G accident of it's kind in dual complex, twin or tailwheel instruction 

If you feel some rush, I think the right word is "not advisable" rather than "not doable" !

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236915
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f3be87bd3bf7f1b164fe18c/Diamond_DA_42_NG_Twin_Star_G-SLCT_06-20.pdf

Edited August 26, 2020 by Ibra

[kris_adams]

8 hours ago, Nick Pilotte said:

Because this....

https://youtu.be/vyC-2RDSXD0

As others have said, T&G in a complex aircraft increases odds of missing an item or attempting a takeoff with incorrect configuration (flaps or trim not set).  Combine that with rapid full throttle inputs and you can really have a bad day.  

Was the Citation Mustang (thanks Nick) doing touch n go's?  Never heard of a jet doing it. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Kris_Adams

[Hank]

Just now, Kris_Adams said:

Was the Lear (think that's what it was) doing touch n go's?  Never heard of a jet doing it. 

I grew up on a series of Marine Corps Air Stations. Everything they fly does touch and goes. I've since had the pleasure of dodging USAF / ANG C-130s doing TnG both here in Alabama and WV . . . . Civilian jets? I dunno.

[Mooneymite]

Should you land on a carrier deck?

Not without proper training, but even with training it is still hazardous.

Should you do touch and go landings.

Not without proper training.  But there are still hazards.

(I've done T & Gs in J-3s up to L-1011s without mishap, but always with training.)

Edited August 26, 2020 by Mooneymite

[Nick Pilotte]

9 minutes ago, Kris_Adams said:

Was the Lear (think that's what it was) doing touch n go's?  Never heard of a jet doing it. 

Citation Mustang, on a type rating checkride with the new owner and examiner.  I don’t know why they didn’t GUMPS.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/02/cessna-510-citation-mustang-n163tc.html?m=1

[eman1200]

looks like there are 2 types of people when it comes to TnG's.........there are people who are against doing TnG's, and there are people who have no issue whatsoever doing TnG's.  

hope I helped answer your question.

[kris_adams]

7 minutes ago, Nick Pilotte said:

Citation Mustang, on a type rating checkride with the new owner and examiner.  I don’t know why they didn’t GUMPS.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/02/cessna-510-citation-mustang-n163tc.html?m=1

oh dang...

[steingar]

I dunno, seems like a lot to do in very little time with a lot to go wrong that can produce catastrophic results for negligible benefit.  Just how I see it.

[Jim Peace]

please do some touch and go's,,,,I want my insurance to go up more....

[N201MKTurbo]

I was at Long Beach a couple of weeks ago, waiting for the ceilings to improve at Catalina, and watched a Southwest 737 do 3 touch and gos.

[Nick Pilotte]

Ok, so maybe I could see doing them in a two crew aircraft easier.  Does the 737-X landing SOP stipulate adding large amounts of trim and can the computers handle the reconfiguration changes with a TOGA button?  If not using a TOGA, how long does/would it take for a pilot to dial back trim from landing to takeoff?  Same with flaps/slats?

[Mooneymite]

43 minutes ago, Nick Pilotte said:

Ok, so maybe I could see doing them in a two crew aircraft easier.  Does the 737-X landing SOP stipulate adding large amounts of trim and can the computers handle the reconfiguration changes with a TOGA button?  If not using a TOGA, how long does/would it take for a pilot to dial back trim from landing to takeoff?  Same with flaps/slats?

On the jets I've done TnGs in, trim for landing is not that far from the takeoff range, so getting trim in the takeoff range doesn't take long.  Flaps generally move from landing to one of the acceptable takeoff flap setting pretty quickly.  As long as the takeoff warning horn doesn't go off when power is applied, everything is set.

Needless to say, the simulators are so good now, who would want, or need to do TnGs in a jet?

[ohdub]

I find that with my J, if I land with the flaps in the takeoff position rather than full flaps, that trim will be approximately in the right spot for the go. With full flaps on approach, trim is much more nose up. So if I am going to do a touch and go, I will set the flaps to the takeoff position for landing and then the only thing I do after touchdown is to add full power. 

Especially in a single pilot situation, to land with full flaps and have to reset the flaps and the trim while rolling down the runway is a bit much.

Having said all this, the only time I'll do a touch and go is if I need night takeoffs and landings for currency and the runway is long enough.

[Nick Pilotte]

My ONLY turbine time is in the right seat of a Mustang.  On that plane, I’d agree that reconfiguring isn’t (too) bad. Doesn’t mean I would want to do it and really would not appreciate it on a check ride. It would take a really long runway to have a balanced field for takeoff after landing in one, even lightly loaded.  I’d have to review the manual for a Mustang but if the wheels are on the ground you don’t reinitiate a takeoff in any of the emergency procedures.  Now to perform the same maneuver in an older piston with a trim wheel and non-notched electric flaps, you could end up with a really uncomfortable surprise when you push the throttle all the way forward.  Didn’t that happen to a Bravo in AZ not more than a year ago?  If I remember that was even a forum member.  Sad outcome.  

Edited August 26, 2020 by Nick Pilotte

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, ohdub said:

Having said all this, the only time I'll do a touch and go is if I need night takeoffs and landings for currency and the runway is long enough.

Night currency landings to carry passengers at night must be toma full stop.

On those calm nights, I will roll to the end, turn around and take off the other way. One pattern for 26, followed by a pattern for 8, with final landing on 26.

[ohdub]

Just now, Hank said:

Night currency landings to carry passengers at night must be toma full stop.

On those calm nights, I will roll to the end, turn around and take off the other way. One pattern for 26, followed by a pattern for 8, with final landing on 26.

That must be a US thing, I'm not aware of that being a requirement here in Canada?

[gsxrpilot]

28 minutes ago, Hank said:

Night currency landings to carry passengers at night must be toma full stop.

On those calm nights, I will roll to the end, turn around and take off the other way. One pattern for 26, followed by a pattern for 8, with final landing on 26.

The Commercial ticket requires 10 night landings but no mention of them being full stop. I've done 10 T&G's at night to meet that requirement.